Rooze: Sorry if i came across as "dogging" you. Quite honestly, i take for granted that some info should be "common knowledge" when it really isn't. Couple that with a lack of info due to differing ideas as to what is "loud", what is "bass deficient", etc... due to not having any points of reference ( spl measurements, frequency response curves, etc) and we could run around in circles forever. Until we know exactly what you want, how far you are willing to go to achieve those results and what type of results you are currently observing will only have us making general observations about your installation. You are presenting a situation that is out of the ordinary. As such, many of the suggestions that might otherwise be excellent may not be applicable to your situation.
Having said that, it had appeared that you had put forth some effort to address many of the concerns, but the changes mentioned almost seemed to ignore some of those trying to offer first hand insight as to what makes these speakers in that type of installation "sing". Part of this could be from lack of specifics in the suggestions being made and / or your lack of experience with various makes / models on the market. My guess is that it was probably a combo of both. I guess in some situations, one almost has to be specific about makes / models that should work and makes / models that should be avoided. As a general rule though, we end up having "fights" about what is "good" and what is "bad" in situations like that, hence the generalizations that many of us make trying to point people in the "right direction" without being TOO specific. I probably stepped on ( more like STOMPED on ) more than a few toes with my comments about SS Mac amps above, but it seemed like "generic observations" weren't doing us much good here.
Top this off with the speaker placement that you ended up with in this new post, which was far from optimal and possibly even worse, and it appeared that many of the recommendations being provided were being "dissed" i.e. thrown to the side due to lack of respect for the points of view being expressed. Hence my "spelling it out" point by point, which probably came across as hostile. In all actuallity, i was simply trying to explain things in the most informative yet "cut & dried" approach possible. Being to the point and coming across as being a "gruff bastard" are sometimes easily confused. That said, i probably am "gruff bastard" all too often.
If you can provide us with some type of spl references and ballpark frequency response curves, we might be able to better help. Between the size of your room, your speakers radiation pattern / impedance / lack of sensitivity and not knowing what speaker positioning is acceptable in your room, we are all working blindly. I think that most of us took for granted that with a room that size, you could put your speakers wherever they worked best with little concern for traffic patterns.
Here's a method that i've used to set up all different types of speakers in all different types of rooms. If it helps your or someone else, that's great. Other than that, i'll shut up now. Sean
>
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The "quick & dirty" method of speaker positioning, regardless of room size or shape:
This method takes into account the variables encountered in a normal installation in a room that is not acoustically optimized or make use of dimensions that are considered desirable by most audiophiles. Since most of us have our systems in shared living spaces, some restraint must be placed on how things are set up. This approach tries to take those factors into account and at the same time, help you to achieve the best performance that you can with those operating constraints. This assumes that the primary listening position will be centered between the right and left speakers. Obviously, you have to have some idea of where you want to place the speakers in your room i.e. which side of the room, etc... before you can start.
With that in mind, the dispersion characteristics of the speaker and room placement should have been taken into account prior to purchase and set-up. Far too many people buy speakers that are not suitable for the intended listening environment and then wonder why their results are not what they expected. Some careful planning and common sense can go a long way here. Bigger is not always better and vice-versa.
Select a recording with a solo female vocalist accompanied by minimal music. With the system in mono and the speakers firing straight ahead ( flat faced with no toe in ), spread the speakers out as far as possible while keeping the singer's voice centered. When you can start to hear the left speaker independently of the right i.e. the female singer is no longer centered but sounds slightly diffuse, bring the speakers back in just a bit. If you've done this correctly, the speakers should be spread as far apart as is possible while still retaining a rock solid center image.
Using a recording that has relatively even tonal balance with good bass extension, move your speakers back and forth until you find good tonal balance i.e. the right amount of bass reinforcement / cancellation for your individual room and seated listening position. By back and forth, i'm speaking in regards to their position to the wall behind them and your seated listening position. You're still in mono mode here. You are looking for the most even frequency response i.e. no specific bass notes stick out nor do others seem to be missing.
Switch the system back into Stereo mode. For this portion, you'll need a recording that offers both a broad soundstage and solid imaging. Adjust the angle of the speakers ( flat-faced, toed-in, etc... ) until you have both solid imaging and a wide soundstage. In most cases, you'll end up having to compromise between how wide the soundstage is and how "etched" the image is. One should also bare in mind that tonal balance is affected here with more toe-in generating an apparent increase in high frequency output.
Once you've got all this done, go back to the first step and start over again. You may end up having to move the speakers a bit in any given direction. Since any one placement change will alter the performance of several aspects of the presentation, it's possible that further refining will have you doing this several times. While repeating this procedure, don't forget to switch back to mono for the first two steps and then stereo for the third portion.
The first run will get you 90% of the way there in a reasonable amount of time. From there, it's all a matter of finesse and how picky you want to be. Since every installation is different, especially with various furniture, speaker radiation patterns, room dimensions and listening positions, this works better than any formula i've ever found. In effect, this helps you to work with your individual room and speakers rather than trying to make your specific room and speakers work with a "generic" formula based on optimal conditions.
This approach is based on using one's ears as the only tools available. The end result will give you sound that you find enjoyable within the confines of that room. It is quite possible that the end results may be far from "flat" or "tonally neutral" though. Obviously, what one hears and likes will have great effect on the outcome here. Tuning the system for flatter response using test recordings and an spl meter may provide very different results than what one ends up with using the above approach. In most cases, one can obtain excellent results by combining the two types of system set-up ( listening / personal preference and testing with calibrated test equipment ) with minimal cash outlay.
By the way, DON'T make the same mistakes that most people do. Slightly uneven spacing from side walls on each speaker is okay. Many people try to space the speakers the same distance from the sidewalls, but this just reinforces specific nodes. Staggering the nodes for each speaker slightly helps present a more even tonal balance with less pronounced peaks and dips. Investing in a reasonably priced yet "accurate" spl meter and a recording containing calibrated test tones is well worth the money in my experience.
Having said that, it had appeared that you had put forth some effort to address many of the concerns, but the changes mentioned almost seemed to ignore some of those trying to offer first hand insight as to what makes these speakers in that type of installation "sing". Part of this could be from lack of specifics in the suggestions being made and / or your lack of experience with various makes / models on the market. My guess is that it was probably a combo of both. I guess in some situations, one almost has to be specific about makes / models that should work and makes / models that should be avoided. As a general rule though, we end up having "fights" about what is "good" and what is "bad" in situations like that, hence the generalizations that many of us make trying to point people in the "right direction" without being TOO specific. I probably stepped on ( more like STOMPED on ) more than a few toes with my comments about SS Mac amps above, but it seemed like "generic observations" weren't doing us much good here.
Top this off with the speaker placement that you ended up with in this new post, which was far from optimal and possibly even worse, and it appeared that many of the recommendations being provided were being "dissed" i.e. thrown to the side due to lack of respect for the points of view being expressed. Hence my "spelling it out" point by point, which probably came across as hostile. In all actuallity, i was simply trying to explain things in the most informative yet "cut & dried" approach possible. Being to the point and coming across as being a "gruff bastard" are sometimes easily confused. That said, i probably am "gruff bastard" all too often.
If you can provide us with some type of spl references and ballpark frequency response curves, we might be able to better help. Between the size of your room, your speakers radiation pattern / impedance / lack of sensitivity and not knowing what speaker positioning is acceptable in your room, we are all working blindly. I think that most of us took for granted that with a room that size, you could put your speakers wherever they worked best with little concern for traffic patterns.
Here's a method that i've used to set up all different types of speakers in all different types of rooms. If it helps your or someone else, that's great. Other than that, i'll shut up now. Sean
>
----------------------------------------------------------
The "quick & dirty" method of speaker positioning, regardless of room size or shape:
This method takes into account the variables encountered in a normal installation in a room that is not acoustically optimized or make use of dimensions that are considered desirable by most audiophiles. Since most of us have our systems in shared living spaces, some restraint must be placed on how things are set up. This approach tries to take those factors into account and at the same time, help you to achieve the best performance that you can with those operating constraints. This assumes that the primary listening position will be centered between the right and left speakers. Obviously, you have to have some idea of where you want to place the speakers in your room i.e. which side of the room, etc... before you can start.
With that in mind, the dispersion characteristics of the speaker and room placement should have been taken into account prior to purchase and set-up. Far too many people buy speakers that are not suitable for the intended listening environment and then wonder why their results are not what they expected. Some careful planning and common sense can go a long way here. Bigger is not always better and vice-versa.
Select a recording with a solo female vocalist accompanied by minimal music. With the system in mono and the speakers firing straight ahead ( flat faced with no toe in ), spread the speakers out as far as possible while keeping the singer's voice centered. When you can start to hear the left speaker independently of the right i.e. the female singer is no longer centered but sounds slightly diffuse, bring the speakers back in just a bit. If you've done this correctly, the speakers should be spread as far apart as is possible while still retaining a rock solid center image.
Using a recording that has relatively even tonal balance with good bass extension, move your speakers back and forth until you find good tonal balance i.e. the right amount of bass reinforcement / cancellation for your individual room and seated listening position. By back and forth, i'm speaking in regards to their position to the wall behind them and your seated listening position. You're still in mono mode here. You are looking for the most even frequency response i.e. no specific bass notes stick out nor do others seem to be missing.
Switch the system back into Stereo mode. For this portion, you'll need a recording that offers both a broad soundstage and solid imaging. Adjust the angle of the speakers ( flat-faced, toed-in, etc... ) until you have both solid imaging and a wide soundstage. In most cases, you'll end up having to compromise between how wide the soundstage is and how "etched" the image is. One should also bare in mind that tonal balance is affected here with more toe-in generating an apparent increase in high frequency output.
Once you've got all this done, go back to the first step and start over again. You may end up having to move the speakers a bit in any given direction. Since any one placement change will alter the performance of several aspects of the presentation, it's possible that further refining will have you doing this several times. While repeating this procedure, don't forget to switch back to mono for the first two steps and then stereo for the third portion.
The first run will get you 90% of the way there in a reasonable amount of time. From there, it's all a matter of finesse and how picky you want to be. Since every installation is different, especially with various furniture, speaker radiation patterns, room dimensions and listening positions, this works better than any formula i've ever found. In effect, this helps you to work with your individual room and speakers rather than trying to make your specific room and speakers work with a "generic" formula based on optimal conditions.
This approach is based on using one's ears as the only tools available. The end result will give you sound that you find enjoyable within the confines of that room. It is quite possible that the end results may be far from "flat" or "tonally neutral" though. Obviously, what one hears and likes will have great effect on the outcome here. Tuning the system for flatter response using test recordings and an spl meter may provide very different results than what one ends up with using the above approach. In most cases, one can obtain excellent results by combining the two types of system set-up ( listening / personal preference and testing with calibrated test equipment ) with minimal cash outlay.
By the way, DON'T make the same mistakes that most people do. Slightly uneven spacing from side walls on each speaker is okay. Many people try to space the speakers the same distance from the sidewalls, but this just reinforces specific nodes. Staggering the nodes for each speaker slightly helps present a more even tonal balance with less pronounced peaks and dips. Investing in a reasonably priced yet "accurate" spl meter and a recording containing calibrated test tones is well worth the money in my experience.