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Front- vs. Down-Firing Subs and Amp Issue

A couple of assertions in the audio world have me perplexed as to how to select a subwoofer for my two-channel system.

Richard Hardesty makes the blanket statement in his Audio Perfectionist Journal that down-firing subs should never be used for high-end two-channel audio. Only front-firing subs are suitable for this application. I see, however, that some of the most-recommended subs on a'gon (Hsu TN series, ACI and REL come to mind) are down-firing (or up-firing in the case of Hsu.) Maybe the answer is that audiophile subs can't be purchased at the price point most mortals can afford, and the lower-priced subs just happen to be down-firing? Oh, Hardesty also says ported subs are not suitable for high-end audio; must go with a sealed box. Interesting.

The second assertion comes from Mike Barnes at nOrh, who says on his website that the plate amps used in 90% of subs today is crap and puts out only a fraction of power that is claimed. The sound that was rattling his windows and creating "earth-shaking bass" was not bass at all- it was distortion. He also states that he began tests in subwoofer development using the popular Peerless 12" woofer, which was literally shredded by a (non-plate) 150-watt amp.

So now I'm confused. Is it possible to buy a high-quality sub for relatively little money? I can't bring myself to spend $3-5k on a pair of speakers only to turn around and spend nearly that much on a sub. Oh, and then I hear that if I want the best possible configuration I need two subs at twice the price, making my subs more expensive than my speakers. Is this just a fact of life that I'll have to come to grips with if I don't want to buy speakers that go down to 20hz?

Thoughts?
aggielaw
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rauliruegas
13,104 posts
 
Dear Dave: +++++ " Not really, unless were talking price and convenience...no advantage in sound quality at all " +++++

I think that this statement is a misunderstood about the subwoofer subject. This is what I already post on other thread and, by coincidence, what the Audio Perfectionist Journal review about:

+++++ " - Now the low bass frecuencies are handle for a dedicated driver that was build with specifics characteristics for to work in that frecuency range and this low bass driver is matched with an amplifier ( self powered subwoofers ) that was build with specifications that mates excatly what the low bass drivers needs about: frecuency response, output impedance, damping, power, etc..... You can't ask for more!!! " +++++

The concept of passive subwoofers, the use of only one ( mono ) sub and low bass enhanced through a subwoofer is a very " old " concept that already change, for the better, for the new concept: integration of subwoofers in a true stereo way, with all the advantages that these means ( read carefully those links ).

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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rauliruegas
13,104 posts
 
Dear Tgrisham: +++++ " a subwoofer should be front firing if it is crossed over high enough to localize (60 Hz, 80 Hz, 100 Hz?) and then should be placed in front between the mains.. " +++++

You can't localize where are the subs at a crossover point from 80Hz and down. You can try and you will see that it is almost impossible.
The position of the subs has nothing to do if is front/rear/down firing, the room position is a very complex subject where there are no absolute rules.

You can read the links that I already post in this thread ( the first post ) about the whole subwoofer concept. Maybe these links can help you to obtain a better quality music reproduction from your system.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
tgrisham
1,291 posts
 
Rauliruegas,

I understand the concepts. I too believe that 80 Hz is the limit for localization of low frequencies, but others disagree. Below 80 is not a problem, above 80 can be. Bass frequencies have such long wavelengths that the position of the sub has more to do with modes and room interactions, unless the crossover is high. If the sub can be localized due to the higher frequencies it produces, then it should be placed near the front speakers. This will minimize the confusion created by various sound sources arriving at different times. In an ideal world we would have speakers flat from 10 Hz to 30k Hz and subs would not be as important. As such, I believe that subs are important. Implementing them in a given room is the challenge and I have only been successful through trial and error. I tried the formulas and gave up! The key is to continue to have fun, not take it too seriously and experiment. And, I agree, its only about the music.
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rauliruegas
13,104 posts
 
Dear Tgrisham: I agree with you..

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
piezo
304 posts
 
Hmmm. while not a sub my Dunlavy Athenas have a downward firing 10 that is rated flat to at least 30 hz and lower with room effects considered. the bass is extreemly tight and musical. I spent a lot of time dialing the speaker position in to get everything balanced and i stronly agree with the fact that just throwing a sub into a room and hoping for the best won't work.

Tgrisham, for pro soundsystem application we have the subs located below the mid/high tops,corssed over at 100hz and there is no +difficulty with two subs vrs one. I would thnink that home set ups should be similiar as long as you keep the speaker locations matched up and not scattered all over the room so each box is fighting a different room condition.
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