Phase Coherence or Time Alignment: Which More Imp?

My exact comments regarding my opinion of Vandersteen was, that, " I say they sound rather neutral and pleasant."
As far as coherence, the initial thought of the discussion, has been lost. It had to do with Suits Me stating that "then says he likes Fried speakers, which are first order."
If one goes to Frieds stated work and crossovers on certain products, which I just referenced tonight, he used 3 db per octave slopes on the woofer, then 18 db per octave, which is third order cross over on mids and tweets.
This has turned into a hornets nest of confusion, for which I can take some credit probably. But Fried, most definitely was NOT a proponent of true first order networks as described as 6 db per octave, the proof of which is listed with his archival work, and my personal conversations with him, in which he found that to be unacceptable, in the design of loudspeakers.
I have nothing but profound respect for Rich Vandersteen, and what was said in my quote was by someone I was with. Truthfully I probably shouldn't have repeated it, other than to point out that his speakers are NOT forward sounding as are the THIEL's.
The 'some guy' who has speakers coming to market is me, Larry Staples, who studied under Jim Thiel, and Albert Von Schweikert, and has 25 years invested in the industry.
It takes thick skin to take a stand on these, supposedly hobbiest friendly sites. If I offend anyone by recanting past experiences I am profoundly apologetic. I found Bud Fried to be passionate, and brilliant. He was a grad of Princeton as I recall, and a fantastic representative of the field of audio, as is Mr. Vandersteen.
We all have disperate ideas on what works in design. Nobody has all the answers. I am struggling to make my product come to market and only hope to have a fraction of the success that Bud and Rich Vandersteen, and Jim Thiel, as well as the others who have contributed so much.
My speakers are a tribute to design by listening, not intellectualizing what 'should work'. I voiced my product, making it sound as I personally think real music sounds like. Some will like it others won't. Be aware that I am only ATTEMPTING to add to the science and art of building speakers.
Please, no one, take offense at any misspoken words.

Best,
Larry R. Staples
LSA Group
President

I'm really having a great time watching the discourse in this thread!

Larry, I am happy to hear you were a friend of Bud's. I really do feel an emptyness in his absence. I am honored by all of which is being written about him here.

What I personally feel is Bud's greatest gift to us is his lifetime of continually improving the craft that so many of us (Jim Thiel, Jeff Joseph, Larry Staples, Richard Moddafieri, Ray Kimber) have immersed ourselves in with all of our hearts.

It is true that Bud was outspoken, opinionated, and could be downright ornery. However, for those capable of seeing the truth, he dedicated his life into laying the foundation which we all could build upon. He knew that life was finite, but also knew that the art/science would never cease. His hope was for us to learn from his life experience - all of the work, successes, mistakes, etc. to build upon his lessons learned so that we did not have to reivent the wheel. Seeing people ripped off by shamanism or BS would enrage him. If that ruffled feathers along the way, I can think of no higher compliment to pay the man. For those who he came to become fond of, there was boundless fun, humor, respect, generosity, and love.

While I believe and am invested in first order series crossovers, low Q drivers, transmission line loading of the bass and midrange drivers, and time alignment, who am I to say that another approach is not without merit? Again, there are so many fine sounding speakers, in many different flavors, that we can respect those who have faithfully dedicated themselves to the craft.

Trelja long time no write.
Yes, Bud was a legend, and old time, old fashioned, 'tell it like it is, kind of guy.
Last night when I started writing about how much I loved his speakers, (and owned the ALS30's, I think they were called though my heart was with the TL 50's at the outlandish cost of, I think $2500. in 1978) it was frankly before my techno awareness. So when I was properly upbraided for liking him, thinking his work and Jim's were (no pun) polar opposites, my memory kept telling me that he was not a first order guy.
Then when someone wrote that note about me liking him, I had to go, both to my memories of our many conversations, then to the archives, and research his work.
There, in what appears to be old Royal typewriter print,
gotta love the days before computers, was the description of his design. I mispoke, (it was after midnite and I was tired, 6db in the bass, though above I mistakenly said 3db,
anyway, then 18 db per octave in the mid/tweet crossover.
Heck, I should have remembered, as I mentioned above, he was a hoot. When the G2A(?) came out to good press, he would call me weekly and raise holy hell with me for selling THIEL's CS3. And his language, Hell I thought I knew all the words, he must have visited the Profanity 101 Classes at Princeton. HA!!! He was the most loveable curmudgen.
I remember a few years later seeing him in Chicago, the home of the Consumer Electronics Show for years; I saw him, and as I recall he had had heart bypass surgery--that must have been in 1986? I remember, when we shook hands, I was alarmed at how thin, and cold his hands were; but it did not alter his enthusiasm or excitement for life and audio.
I miss him already. God, what and influence. I, without being corney bow at the altar of he and Jim THIEL, Joseph Audio, (hence my shock and pleasure when he agreed with my thoughts on crossovers). My only shock was when someone took umbridge at his comment about THIEL. It was a complement to Jim's genius, and as is often the case on these hallowed threads, someone thought Joseph was being negative about him. Shame, because he was expressing true admiration, just noting his shared view of a design, certainly not Jim, another, later day legend.
And (long winded here), Jim Thiel, is just as wonderful a person to work for as one might imagine. Always gentle, and kind, and hard working, the true American dream--from a dirt floor garage start, to an international company.
Thanks for the memo, and kind words. The audio business is better for Bud, Jim, Rich Vandersteen, Joseph, Gayle Sanders, Roger West, and(another mentor) Albert Von Schweikert. Thanks for them and many I have forgotten.
(Oh God, how could I forget Peter Snell, one of Jim's good friends, who died at, I think 37--a genius snatched from audio all too soon.
God Bless Bud!!!

There's been a lot of pointless carping and sniping about 1st order vs non 1st order designs of late.

I suggest we all listen with our ears and choose what sounds best to us in our system. It's quite clear that there is a wide variation in what different people consider to be the "best" in audio, so I have little doubt that no single approach will appeal to all tastes.

And for the discussion we should keep it technical, or at the very least preface all subjective comments as such.

If you read my posts above, I tried to express the theme that it is probably wise for the general "Audiophile" to not get so immersed in crossover engineering and go out and listen for themselves to the various designs. I also stated that it was THEIR money and satisfaction that was at stake.
I believe that a person's idea of "Good" sound is so highly variable that any and all designs can be considered.
I just happen to be in the first order camp and have been there for a long time. I have based my opinions on 40 years of experience of listening to various designed speakers in my own room side by side. I personally feel this is the only way to judge a speaker and unfortunately, many do not have this opportunity. I just don't think that dealers stores and shows are the place to make a decision (or honestly formulate an opinion) but that's the way it is.
As I have stated so many times, I feel that preserving the waveform is of great importance. I always step back from time to time and listen to other designs to maintain a perspective and to me personally, the compromise in higher slope speaker designs is just too great for crirical listening, even though, I will admit, some sound very good. Hell, I use steeper slope speakers in my home theater because I have never felt it was THAT important used in this context (with the exception that I do believe the drivers need to be matched.)
We will just have to agree to disagree on the ultimate merits of each design and I'm sure this debate will go on and on. It's always interesting though.