Phase Coherence or Time Alignment: Which More Imp?


This thread is really a follow on from a prior one that I let lapse. Thanks to everyone who contributed and helped me to better understand the importance of crossover design in building a loudspeaker. What I gathered from the last thread that there are opposing camps with different philosophies in crossover design. Leaving aside for a moment those that champion steep slope designs, my question is for those who have experience with speakers that are time aligned and/or phase coherent (using 1st order 6db per octave crossovers). Which is more important, phase coherence or time alignment? In other words, which more strongly influences the sound and performance of a loudspeaker? The reason I ask is because of the four speaker lines currently on my shortlist of floorstanders, three are either phase coherent or time aligned or both. The Wilson Benesch Curve's/ACT's and the Fried Studio 7 use 1st order crossovers but do not time align the drivers through the use of a slanted baffle. The Vandersteen 5's and the Quatro's both time align the drivers and use 1st order crossovers. I guess what I am asking is do you need to do both or is the real benefit in the crossover design? I'd appreciate your views.
BTW the other speaker is the Proac D25 and D38
128x128dodgealum
Trelja long time no write.
Yes, Bud was a legend, and old time, old fashioned, 'tell it like it is, kind of guy.
Last night when I started writing about how much I loved his speakers, (and owned the ALS30's, I think they were called though my heart was with the TL 50's at the outlandish cost of, I think $2500. in 1978) it was frankly before my techno awareness. So when I was properly upbraided for liking him, thinking his work and Jim's were (no pun) polar opposites, my memory kept telling me that he was not a first order guy.
Then when someone wrote that note about me liking him, I had to go, both to my memories of our many conversations, then to the archives, and research his work.
There, in what appears to be old Royal typewriter print,
gotta love the days before computers, was the description of his design. I mispoke, (it was after midnite and I was tired, 6db in the bass, though above I mistakenly said 3db,
anyway, then 18 db per octave in the mid/tweet crossover.
Heck, I should have remembered, as I mentioned above, he was a hoot. When the G2A(?) came out to good press, he would call me weekly and raise holy hell with me for selling THIEL's CS3. And his language, Hell I thought I knew all the words, he must have visited the Profanity 101 Classes at Princeton. HA!!! He was the most loveable curmudgen.
I remember a few years later seeing him in Chicago, the home of the Consumer Electronics Show for years; I saw him, and as I recall he had had heart bypass surgery--that must have been in 1986? I remember, when we shook hands, I was alarmed at how thin, and cold his hands were; but it did not alter his enthusiasm or excitement for life and audio.
I miss him already. God, what and influence. I, without being corney bow at the altar of he and Jim THIEL, Joseph Audio, (hence my shock and pleasure when he agreed with my thoughts on crossovers). My only shock was when someone took umbridge at his comment about THIEL. It was a complement to Jim's genius, and as is often the case on these hallowed threads, someone thought Joseph was being negative about him. Shame, because he was expressing true admiration, just noting his shared view of a design, certainly not Jim, another, later day legend.
And (long winded here), Jim Thiel, is just as wonderful a person to work for as one might imagine. Always gentle, and kind, and hard working, the true American dream--from a dirt floor garage start, to an international company.
Thanks for the memo, and kind words. The audio business is better for Bud, Jim, Rich Vandersteen, Joseph, Gayle Sanders, Roger West, and(another mentor) Albert Von Schweikert. Thanks for them and many I have forgotten.
(Oh God, how could I forget Peter Snell, one of Jim's good friends, who died at, I think 37--a genius snatched from audio all too soon.
God Bless Bud!!!
There's been a lot of pointless carping and sniping about 1st order vs non 1st order designs of late.

I suggest we all listen with our ears and choose what sounds best to us in our system. It's quite clear that there is a wide variation in what different people consider to be the "best" in audio, so I have little doubt that no single approach will appeal to all tastes.

And for the discussion we should keep it technical, or at the very least preface all subjective comments as such.
If you read my posts above, I tried to express the theme that it is probably wise for the general "Audiophile" to not get so immersed in crossover engineering and go out and listen for themselves to the various designs. I also stated that it was THEIR money and satisfaction that was at stake.
I believe that a person's idea of "Good" sound is so highly variable that any and all designs can be considered.
I just happen to be in the first order camp and have been there for a long time. I have based my opinions on 40 years of experience of listening to various designed speakers in my own room side by side. I personally feel this is the only way to judge a speaker and unfortunately, many do not have this opportunity. I just don't think that dealers stores and shows are the place to make a decision (or honestly formulate an opinion) but that's the way it is.
As I have stated so many times, I feel that preserving the waveform is of great importance. I always step back from time to time and listen to other designs to maintain a perspective and to me personally, the compromise in higher slope speaker designs is just too great for crirical listening, even though, I will admit, some sound very good. Hell, I use steeper slope speakers in my home theater because I have never felt it was THAT important used in this context (with the exception that I do believe the drivers need to be matched.)
We will just have to agree to disagree on the ultimate merits of each design and I'm sure this debate will go on and on. It's always interesting though.
Nice post, Larry!

Only one thing, I'm sure that Bud is turning over in his grave right now regarding your feeling that he went to Princeton. As you will well remember via this prodding, it was "Fair Haaaaaaaaavud".

All I will add is that he was truly a member of The Greatest Generation. During his time there, he received every degree they offered, medicine and dentistry excepted. Though he was frail later in life, his energy, enthusiasm, and confidence, and wit would put any 23 year old to shame.

I am a better person because he befriended me. He and football great Johnny Sample have both made indelible marks on my life.
Sorry Bud, what a disgrace to accuse him of graduating from Princeton. LOL! Actually, it was so long ago, I figured I had a fifty fifty shot.
Again, what a mind, what a guy. Legends like him will last forever.
Years after I opened my store, a guy I had been trying to THIEL-ize, came in, and had found either the TL 50's or the Studio Monitors. They were magnificent. Music rolled out in the bottom like almost no other. Wow.
Transmission lines don't work according to some, who say the laws of physics, and length of the bass wave preclude it- I say, TELL THAT TO THE WONDERFUL BASS ROLLING OUT OF THEM !