best 5-20K speakers for high-end tube amp?

Sorry about responding late to my own thread. I thought this thread had ended a while ago! And I still haven't found my speaker, despite tons of auditioning over the last number of weeks.

I have heard the Avantgardes Unos several times now, but only with solid state electronics. Audiojoy, I agree with what you said about their harshness, lack of bass, and unnatural tonality. Did you listen to them with tubes? Would that make a big difference? I really wanted to like these speakers, as well as the Acapellas. I heard the High Violin and the LaCampaniles, both with SS, and also found them harsh and overly analytical. Other horn speakers I have listened to include Odeon, Tannoy, and TAD/Pioneer. I found the Tannoy Churchill and Pioneer horn speakers the most musical and integrated, but the Churchills lacked bass detail and the Pioneers lacked a degree of transparency across the board.

I seem to be bumping up against a problem of detail/tranparency/immediacy versus musicality/listenability/tone/integration.

My favorite speakers so far, price aside, are the Wilson Alexandrias and Eggleston Works Savoy. These are the only speakers which have really 'wowed' me and let me consistently forget about judging them due to enrapture by music during auditioning. With the right electronics, I've also liked Kharma speakers, though I think they noticeably lack detail (after my first audition of the Midi Exquisites I listened to Rockport Antares, which were far more accurate. during my second audition of 3.2 and 2.0, the dealer himself did a demonstration with european folk music showing how an entire stringed instrument was muffled by both Kharmas, and rendered in full detail by a pair of German Physiks speakers). I also really liked the sound of a vintage pair of Wharfedales driven by McIntosh tubes, but wasn't allowed an extensive audition.

Since all of these speakers are over US$20,000 new, I may either abandon my speaker search for now (until I audition more speakers, or find the above at a used price), or change my budget. The Savoy would also require me to change amps.

My ideal speaker would have:

1) immediacy and transparency of high-quality horns, or a custom-built single driver Lowther I heard (but without compromised bass and musicality issues)

2) tonal balance and harmonic complexity of Alexandrias and Savoy (but without huge expense and/or need for huge power)

3) liquidity and listenability of higher-end Kharmas (but with more accuracy and transparency)

4) musicality and flavor of vintage horn and other older speakers (but without problems of detail, muddiness, soundstaging)

Please keep in mind I am new to audio and these are my personal impressions, I don't mean to offend anyone with any comments. I just hope to get useful advice from people out there.

Dseid, sorry about taking so long to get back to you. Some terrific recommendations for indian or flamenco music you could check out include:

Ravi Shankar (Indian sitar)
Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan (Sufi vocals)
Prahlad Brahmachari (Bengali Baul music)
L. Subramanium (Indian violin)
Paco de Lucia (modern flamenco guitarist)
Camaron de la Isla (flamenco singer)
Manolo Caracol (flamenco singer)
La Nina de los Peines (flamenco singer)
Carmen Linares (flamenco singer)
Radio Tarifa (moroccan/flamenco fusion)

In general, I think Peter Gabriel's Real World Label is a good starting part to expand into world music. There is also a Rough Guide to World Music.

some random world music I like include:

Wu Jing Lue (chinese qin)
Han Hong (tibetan singer)
Zhou xuan (shanghainese singer)
Zap Mama (kind of R&B actually)
Manu Dibango (african jazz)
Teresa Teng (taiwanese pop)
Toto La Momposina (colombian/cuban fusion)
Alberto Pacheco (colombia cumbia)
Amalia Rodrigues (portuguese fado)
Cesaria Evora (african singer in creole)
Ladysmith Black Mambazo (south africa)
Angelique Kidjo (african pop)
Caetano Veloso (brazilian pop)
Ruben Gonzalez (cuban jazz piano)
Paquita de la Barrio (mexican singer)
Julio Preciado (mexican singer)
Astor Piazolla (modern tango)

I also recommend googling "world music" and sampling music online, or even taking risks by ordering highly recommended CDs. There is so much great world music out there (after all, music from most of the world's cultures would fall under this one category). One thing often leads to another, and it is exciting to stumble across hidden genre gems, such as Malagasy guitar music, South African township gospel, Sundanese gamelan music, etc. I have a weakness for cheesy female mandopop, but don't dare make any such recommendations on this audiophile site :-)

I stopped listening to music for the last few years :-( so I can't give you a more extensive list off the top of my head..my CD collection is not with me, and I've forgetten lots of names of what I used to listen to. This is one of the reasons I want to get a really nice system now, to bring music back into my life. Feel free to ask if you need more information, however.

My current potential shortlist for future auditioning include: Carfrae horns, TAD 2404, Coincident Total Victory II, Green Mountain Audio, Merlin, DeVore, Von Schweikert, and a few others...it will take me considerable effort to find these. For auditioning purposes, I would consider speakers of any cost, I am happy now even to know which speakers exist that I can dream of.

best 5-20K speakers for high-end tube amp?

This is the title of your request. Yet, you auditioned potential candidates with a SS amp? How could you possibly know what they will sound like if you're not even close to the configuration that you will have at home? SET & push/pull don't sound the same. SS is hardly the same species. I'm not trying to be offensive here, but I'd scratch all of your conclusions and start over. The speakers you auditioned will sound entirely different when mated with an amp that approximates your Jadis combo.

Boa2,

I auditioned many of the speakers exclusively with a tube pre/pro combo (e.g. Thiel, TAD, Mosquito, custom-built Lowther, Marten design), and many with both tubes and SS (e.g. Odeon,Watt/Puppy,Kharma,Goldmund, JMLabs, Verity Audio, Sonus Faber, Tannoy, ProAc, MBL, Martin Logan, B&W, Mission, ATC, etc.). In most of these cases, changing from SS to tubes helped but not decisively. In cases where this wasn't possible (usually either the dealer didn't have tubes on hand, or I wanted to check out speakers which require high power) (e.g. Avalon, Dynaudio, Wilson Benesch, Linn, Magellan, German Physiks, Revel, Aerial, Naim, Magnepans, Triangle, PMC, Focus audio, Rockport [hybrid amp], Acapella, Avantgarde etc.), I had to use solid state.

In the case of the Avantgardes, I had to go back several times since the dealer kept promising to hook them up to a pair of push-pull CAT JL2 amps, but each time there was a problem with the amps. That is why I still want to give the Avantgardes a chance, and why I asked on this forum whether anyone has heard gross differences on them when using SS vs tube on them.

I was already aware of the differences beween SS and tube amps, and kept this in mind when using SS amplification- only where a speaker's basic 'character' wasn't close to what I was looking for would I write it off in these cases. Room size and acoustics, digital sources, interconnects, etc. also all varied from place to place, but my strategy has been to audition speakers and consider further those that fall within the ballpark of my tastes. In the many cases where I used both SS and tube amps. I found that changing to tube amps would usually improve, sometimes surprisingly, my assessment of the sound, but not fundamentally change the character of the speaker. If I'm wrong on this last point, I would appreciate any suggestions to reaudition any of the above speakers I auditioned recently. I actually found that changing the CD player or pre-amp (e.g. even with a single type) made as much or more of a difference in many cases. I made changes somewhere in the source component chain where I 'felt' a speaker was far from reaching its potential in at least one way. If I felt a speaker was expressing its true potential in some way (I expect a speaker can have several or many kinds of potential expression) but I wasn't moved at all, then I took it off my shortlist.

I appreciate your suggestion, Boa2, if you still think I need to reconsider my strategy or go back and give any or all speakers a re-listen, I would not be offended by further advice. As you can see, I've been a bit obsessed by all this speaker auditioning recently, and still haven't settled on a single speaker. My quest has led me to feel speakers should be chosen before amplification. Much of this auditioning has also served to help me develop and focus my own subjective tastes and requirements, so definitely I don't feel all my time has been wasted. I think a great part of the reason I've had to audition so extensively was to understand my own tastes, and because my expectation of the high-end was higher than what I have encountered.

My priorities, in general order, seem to be: large scale of sound, tonal richness/balance/texture/musicality, transparency/detail, liquid/smooth midrange, bass extension, soundstaging. I expect the speakers I purchase, given the right source, could do most of the above superlatively whether using SS or tubes, although probably better with tubes. Is this expectation unrealistic? I would be willing to switch amps if necessary, but would prefer to wait until auditioning more speakers. The Alexandrias did it for with me with tubes, the Savoys did it with SS. Kharmas have come close with SS.

To follow your suggestion, Boa2, I guess I would go back through the list of speakers I tested with SS amps, and determine which deserve a careful re-audition with SET tubes. From that list, Avantgarde was on my reaudition list because it has been highly recommended, and because it is made for low power. I thought Focus audio and Magnepans were the most sonically pleasing to me, but was told these wouldn't be driven well with low-powered tubes. I would rather wait for future auditioning opportunities with new speakers at this point, than do something drastic like change my amp.

No slouch,
Thanks for your in-depth recount of all your auditioning. Man, you sure have been listening to a lot of speakers! I'm jealous, actually.

I am definitely not experienced enough to make specific recommendations from the vast list of brands you have heard. I've heard many of them, though not all. I'm sure that recommending an amp/speaker audition that approximates your preferences is not any revelation, but if it's me listening, I have a very hard time distinguishing the potential of a speaker when I'm simply guessing because it's being powered by an amp/source that isn't anything like the one I have. On the other hand, you may feel more comfortable with those parameters. Sounds like that might be the case, which is great, because you definitely are zeroing in on your final choice.

Based upon what you liked already--some A+ speakers, by the way--and your stated list of priorities, I too think that you will find the Avantgarde to come up short, particularly in the realm of tonal richness & texture. I hope that statement doesn't kick this thread into another (potentially argumentative) tangient. My comments are simply in response to the fact that the Wilsons, Eggleston Works & Kharmas were so pleasing to you. These aforementioned speakers are not remotely similar to the AG's, so I would suggest auditioning speakers in a similar realm to those that you already like.

I don't know if you have access to them there, but for your lower powered tube amps, you might really enjoy the Silverline OR Coincident line of speakers. Sounds like the Merlin's could be right there as well. You might even start another thread, asking for recommendations based upon the progress you've already made in your quest. Problem is, if you keep listening to speakers that cost several multiples of your $20K ceiling, you'll end up needing a ski mask and a good team of friends to help you find the money to buy them.

Enjoy!
Howard

I finally heard the Avantgarde Unos yesterday (although I was only given a very rushed 15 minutes), since the dealer was accomodating enough to borrow a Jadis DA50 integrated tube amp from the store upstairs. Wow, what a difference! The first note brought a smile to my face. The harshness and edginess was replaced by a warm Jadis glow, in fact I would say the sound was too warm, as I've found before with lower end Jadis designs. As I hoped, these highly sensitive horns speakers seem to reflect their source more than many box speakers I've come across. I can only imagine how much better a sound my Jadis separates would produce. They also used a very inexpensive CD player.

I'm hooked on the possibility of horns now. Compared to the Alexandrias, Ivy, and Kharma speakers, and probably all the other box speakers I heard, I can make out more instrumental details and feel closer to the music. I hope that having the appropriate mix of source components can minimize or eliminate any possibility of harshness.

However, the physical size and appearance of the Avantgardes I find very imposing and unappealing and slightly impractical. I think the bass integration is somewhat of an issue as well, although that may be a necessary compromise. There is still something about their sound that is not as 'comfortable' as my favorite box speakers, but I could attribute this to listening habit and unfamiliarity more than anything.

Boa2 has flagged a possible warning about tonal richness and complexity. I suspect tonal richness could be provided by the source, while I haven't reached a conclusion about tonal complexity, which is one of the reasons I like the Alexandria and Ivy so much. However, the ability of the Avantgardes to resolve find detail, including previously obscure lines of instrumentation, may mean this might not be a big concern. I also like speakers to have what I call, perhaps wrongly, richess of harmonic overtone/instrumental resonance, but wonder whether how much of this is often an exaggeration of hifi systems.

I guess the Avantgardes go on my shortlist. I hope to compile a longer list of potential audition candidates, but any further research is going to cost me considerable time and effort. I am considering just settling on a speaker now, despite there probably being better and more suitable choices lurking out there, and just enjoying music and developing my musical and 'audiophile' appreciation for a better selection process down the road.

Boa2, your comment about my budget is well-taken. I originally thought that my stated budget range ought to take care of it for me. I guess I would spend up to about 30K now, and would like to buy used, so would probably consider speakers up to around the 60K new retail mark.

I guess I could restart a new thread with a better title (e.g. best 10-60K speakers for high-end tube amp), but would this cause more confusion than clarity? I should also state that I would consider trading in my amps for higher power tubes if necessary.

My future audition list, should I continue, now contains:

Beauhorn
Zingali
Von Schweikert
Merlin
DeVore Fidelity
FAB model one
Verity Audio Sarastro
Coincident Total Victory II
Carfrae

Would any of these speakers match or exceed the qualities I found in the Avantgardes?