Tubes vs Solid State - Imaging, Soundstaging, 3D

MichaelKingdom - To your quote below.

My experience seems to be the same as everyone else's on this thread except for the fact that I have my amplifier technologies reversed. Hopefully time will tell what the missing variable is.

I think some of what you've experienced may have to do with the "interactions" and system dependencies that Almarg mentioned. Almarg's quote below.

Undoubtedly in many arguments about the sonic performance of audio components and cables those on both sides of the argument are correct, in the sense that they are accurately reporting what they heard. But what is often lacking on both sides is an understanding of the interactions and system dependencies that are involved. Interactions between amplifier output impedance and speaker impedance vs. frequency characteristics, for example, amplifier output impedance of course being very different between most tube amps and most solid state amps.

Some of the speakers you listed in quote below, namely Dynaudio C1 sig; B&W 802n, 805n, 805d; and Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor m are much better served by SS amps in general. Many disagree, but Maggies **CAN** work well with the right tube amps, but there are concomitant compromises. I'm not familiar with the other speakers you listed, but they too *may* be better served by SS.

I have had quite a few speakers that are popular on this site, many of them being monitors or many monitors which are famous for pinpoint imaging. Dyn c1 sig, focal utopia be, harbeth shl5, maggie mmg, 1.6, 1.7, pas imagine b, bw 802n, bw 805n, bw 805d, usher tiny dancer, metlin tsm mmi, sf cremona auditor m, selah monitors...

With my solid-state electronics I truly feel like spoken voices are coming from a definite pinpoint in space. When using tubes on the same speakers I feel the image is more general and not as pinpoint. Also when using solid-state I hear something that is akin to a Hall effect that you might find on an A/V receiver which makes the room sound bigger. While I am not doing this via digital processing, this is one of the things that I would attribute to a three dimensional soundstage. Also using solid-state I feel that I can judge distances between instruments front to back, side to side better.

Much of what you describe in your paragraph above matches what I have heard when I've matched tube amps with some of the speakers you listed. Paraphrasing Almarg, the match between speaker and amp is very critical when evaluating amps or speakers, but particularly so when debating between SS and tubes. It may just be that other attributes have drawn you to speakers that don't particularly work well with tubes. That's perfectly valid. This hobby is, afterall, about our *own* pleasure, not those of others.

Jordan

@ Robsker, Hi, Your post above is spot on with me!, LOL!, you hit the nail on the head!, It was like I wrote that post, awsome, cheers to you.

It's an interesting proposition to compare high cost SS amps to low cost tube amps. I've hear various Boulder, Pass, Krell, and other SS amps and think they work really well...some of those cost more than a nice car. I've also lived with a modest factory modded Jolida tube amp that cost a fraction of some well regarded SS amps, and, to me, sounds better in every way, although this could be system dependant and due to the fact that I'm an idiot...but an idiot who saved thousands over the cost of a Boulder.

I agree; maybe I'm a idiot too. While Almarg's (and others') comments about the importance of the amp/speaker interface as the determinant of how an amp will perform are very true, to my ears, just as with analog vs digital (PLEASE! I don't want to open THAT can of worms) there are certain intrinsic sonic traits about each technology that, yes, become less and less obvious as the quality level rises, but are alway there to varying degrees.

I'm late to this thread, but:

my perception has been that the prevailing viewpoint among experienced audiophiles is that a particular strong point of tube amplification tends to be imaging and dimensionality. And that has certainly been my experience, and the experience of several of the others who have responded.

We can only speculate as to why your experience has been the opposite.

The reason solid state can seem to have sharper images in the sound field is due to the fact that generally speaking, solid state amps tend to have less low level detail (the why of this is a topic for a different thread but in a nutshell has to do with how the human ear interacts with the noise floor of the amplifier; if anyone is interested I can go into that in greater detail, if you will pardon the expression).

How this affects imaging is that without as much low level detail, the images in the sound field will seem to be in sharper relief. However upon careful listening you will find that in comparison to most tube amps, the images have a 2D/poster quality, as the air (ambiance) around the individual performers is removed; this makes the images 2D but more distinct.

Add the low level detail and the effect is more like what you find live- that there is ambiance created by the sounds of each instrument that tends to take away the stark relief but also adds a 3D quality, which of course is what it is supposed to be...