Turn table speed variation question

Fleib, I think that you are confusing a couple of issues. First of all, while it
is true that orchestras did, in fact, tune to a lower pitch standard in earlier
(than modern) periods, that fact has little to do with the issue of the tuning
of original (period) instruments vs modern versions as it applies to this
discussion. My comments about the design changes in instrument
manufacture that improved the tuning of instruments referred to the
capability of a modern instrument to play in tune relative to itself. IOW,
early instruments (especially woodwinds and brass) had a lot of problems
with intervallic accuracy; for instance, an early clarinet or oboe may be
capable of producing a perfectly in tune "C", but because of
design imperfections the "C" an octave higher might be terribly
sharp. That is but one example of many tuning issues that a performer on
an early instrument might face. The reasons for these issues are not
simply lack of skill on the part of the designer, but also the fact that there
are certain tendencies that are governed by the laws of acoustics, which as
I am sure you know have a great deal to do with mathematics and the
imperfections in the harmonic series. Modern instrument designers have
the help of computer analysis to manipulate (to a degree) these naturally
occurring acoustic phenomena, but, often there is a downside to the
musician which relates to the issue that you bring up:

It is true that A=440 has been the defacto pitch standard for modern
orchestras, although that is changing very rapidly. First of all, European
orchestras have traditionally tuned to a higher pitch than American
orchestras. However, the trend is for American orchestras to tune to a
higher pitch as well. The NY Philharmonic tunes to A=443, Boston to
A=444; the list goes on. The reasons for this trend is primarily that tuning
to a higher pitch reference results in a more brilliant sound which is
considered more attractive or exciting the listener. Additionally, the
prevalence of visiting guest conductors who are used to the higher pitch
has a bearing, as does the possible presence in a concert hall of a pipe
organ tuned to a particular pitch. The lower pitch yields a sound that is
more opulent and rich and allows an orchestral instrument to play better in
tune relative to itself; as designed. While it is possible to tune an
instrument to a higher (or lower) pitch standard it has to be done by altering
(in the case of a woodwind or brass) the length of its tubing by either
shortening or lengthening it. All modern instruments have the
means to do this "on the fly", but the further one takes that
instrument from the ideal length of tubing (that pesky mathematics issue
again) the more that the pitch relationships between notes on that
instrument will be distorted placing more demands on the player to
compensate (via playing technique) for these pitch-relationship distortions.

Re "perfect pitch" and KOB:

****Even people with perfect pitch don't have a problem with this because
the relative pitch remains consistent. ****

That is PRECISELY why people with perfect pitch have a problem with this.
Perfect pitch is not a particularly keen sensitivity to pitch inconsistency, but
the ability to hear when a CONSISTENT pitch is too low or too high relative
to accepted standards (A=440 +/-). When a listener with perfect pitch
hears, for example, a "Bb" played or played back a quarter tone
flat that listener's brain can't process wether the key is then a flat
"Bb" or a sharp "A".

BTW, there is a lot of confusion and lore out there about the pitch issue on
KOB. The facts are these: Side one only of the original pressing of KOB
was recorded on a tape machine that was running slightly slow. Yes, it was
recorded slow, but when those pressings are played back on a turntable
running at the correct speed the end result is music that is sharp in pitch
(too fast); not flat as is often claimed.

Merry Christmas!

BTW, in case anyone read this before the correction, sorry for the
temporary misspelling of your moniker, Fleib; spellchecker strikes again :-)

Frogman, you read too much into my post. It wasn't about intonation specifically, rather accepted standard norms of tuning. When Joseph Sauveur, a 17th century physicist surveyed commonly used tunings, they ranged from middle A being at 405Hz to 421Hz. As you say, with time they've consistently crept up.

I have a musician friend with perfect pitch. KOB doesn't bother him at all. When he hears someone playing out of tune relative to the other players, that might bother him.
Absolute pitch is the ability to reproduce a note without a reference tone. SO WHAT? Do you think my friend goes crazy when an original instrument ensemble tunes to 432Hz and modern one tunes to 444? What's KOB off a 1/4 tone? You've proven my point.

Wynton Marsalis plays a Monette Bb trumpet. I believe Charles Schlueter and Terrance Blanchard also own a Monette. I don't know how much computer modeling went into the design, but the instrument allows the player to consistently play in tune maintaining better timber and more even dynamics. Early horns had no valves or keys. They were unplayable by today's standards. Although I'm not sure what you were referring to specifically, scientific advancements tend to help rather than hurt or musicians wouldn't use them.
Regards,

Yes...a live piano can have vibrato if the strings are not in good tune, they can indeed sound like varying pitch. Also...A# and Bb ARE different pitches. That's one reason why string instruments are said to sound most like the human voice. A# is slightly lower than Bb. The tempered system is a compromise, but we string players always adjust for the key.

On KOB, I have not reviewed my original and apparently provocative comments, but I was referring to the conglomeration of problems with the off-speed version, which is all any of us ever heard for the first 30 years or so after it was recorded in 1957 or 58. These issues included the fact that inexpensive record players of the day were usually themselves running a bit fast or a bit slow and that they were hardly icons of speed stability under variable loads. (I wager none would pass the Timeline test.) These were mostly cheap belt-drives. Later, my first "hi-fi" turntable was an AR; we all know about it's built-in problems that contribute to pitch instability (compliant belt that stretches and contracts when the spring suspension is activated for any reason). I got used to the wobbly piano tones. Sometimes a bit flat, sometimes a bit sharp. One thing I know for sure about myself as an amateur jazz singer and as an audiophile: I don't have perfect pitch. But, as someone else mentioned, I too am very sensitive to unstable pitch. Thus, one got used to the imperfections of the original tape transfer. If you are like me, the music of KOB is kind of imbedded in your brain. That made the "corrected" version sound a bit odd at times.

I've actually cut down drastically on the frequency with which I listen to KOB, because I want to get back to the surprise I felt when first I heard it and for many playings thereafter, in my youth.

Fleib, allow me to explain. I made a comment about the tuning of
instruments and you appeared to respond to it (since no other comment
specifically about the tuning of instruments had been made up to that point)
in a way that I did not see as relevant to what was being discussed; that's
all. Then you made a comment about perfect pitch that suggested that
people with perfect pitch would not have a problem with the fast speed of
side one of KOB. This is a purely subjective thing. This "trivia"
about KBO has been a well known fact among musicians since well before
the "corrected" audiophile versions of that recording came to
be. Many a musician has been bothered by it when trying to transcribe the
solos on the record. What we are talking about is all a matter of degree.
Perhaps unimportant to some, but surely important to many. BTW, while I
am sure your friend is a fine musician, and strictly as a point of interest,
having perfect pitch is in no way an indication of superior musicianship.
Lastly, we have no disagreement about advances in instrument design
other than the fact that instruments that have these
"improvements" are not played by all musicians; quite the
contrary, many still treasure the unique tonal qualities of some of the older
"modern" instruments; many players like a certain amount of
"fight" (resistance) in their instruments.

Regards.