Cables more hype than value?

03-07-13: Knghifi
These forums are a great place to learn but one needs an OPEN mind. It's possible rok2id upgraded from his Yugo with a new perspective?

A friend of mine sent me an email, saying I should peek back in here, and see what turmoil I've helped to wrought. I'm glad I did, because I didn't see Bander's reply before I left. It is seldom I am called intelligent and an ass in one reply. I enjoyed that.

As for Knghifi, Waxwaves, and Audiolabyrinth, all of you are waiting for some sort of entertaining debate so you can sit around and pat each other on the back for hearing what no one else can, while accusing those more interested in science and fact of being close-minded - you guys are seriously deluding yourselves. As I said before, being open-minded does not mean being open to silliness.

Let's ignore science for a moment, let's stick just to logic, something even you flat earthers can understand. I don't care what the cable is for, whether it's an interconnect, a speaker cable, or a power cable, the case for any one of these fails a basic test, which is why a cable that is only a single segment of a much longer signal path affects sound quality as much as you guys claim it does. In the case of an interconnect, once you get inside of almost any modern component the signal is going to trace on a circuit board. Even if it isn't trace, it's probably some cheap hook-up wire. Why are the trace and solder joints so much less important? Or speaker cables, where most speakers are wired, again, with simple hook-up wire. And if not the cabling inside of speakers, the wire on voice coils, which is often aluminum, or the trace on some crossover boards, not to mention all of the simple bare copper wire in massive air-core inductors? I fail to understand why speaker cables are so much more important than these wires, which are in the same signal path. There is no logic to this.

Of course, the most massive failure of logic has to be in power cables and outlets, what with tens of feet of Romex in your house. And power cables aren't even in the signal path.

So while you guys are figuratively sitting here, all smug in your pathetic delusions, telling yourselves in posts how the rest of us are just close-minded and half-deaf because we can't hear the differences you all claim are so critical to a great system, think about these questions. Why does a speaker cable make so much difference when there's just plain-old copper wire in that inductor? Or some nice trace on fiberglass in the way?

I'm sure everybody has some old monster cables in the basement. I forgot the reason and also tried them/SC several years ago. My experience is very different than Polks, they had NO bass, highs but just a congested mid sound ... horrible!

These are the ones with clear shrink wrap and all copper conductor. I believe 1st generation ...

One thing I've noted is the amount of hubris some here display when making a point. POVs are made with a modicum of bile. Discourse is peppered with denunciations. Positions are stated as fact allowing nothing but acquiescence as an answer.

Open minded?

When the maps in ones head don't correspond to the actual territory in the real world, things go awry. People get angry quickly. Knee jerk defensive reactions take the place of discourse. Smarmy snark becomes the norm.

Fiberglass traces, miles of Nomex, and internal wiring are all red herrings. They seem to the casual reader to be of import but they are specious arguments, at best. They don't fit into the argument but are used to deflect attention.

One thing traces, internal wiring and Nomex have in common is that they are all set.

Let that sink in for a minute.

The amp is already voiced the way it's been built. To change anything internally will change the sound. Ask any designer. Internal wiring, traces and layout all affect the sound.

The same goes for speakers. All designers fuss over internal wiring, crossover design, etc. Laymen and DIYers can use product of lesser value and be happy with the result but they are on a learning curve and not to be confused with the better efforts out there.

The wall receptacle is fixed as well. Nothing can be done to it unless you, say, run a dedicated line or go all battery: off the grid.

What is being discussed is what can be done between the wall and the amp and the speaker (there's the logic). What is (and should by now) be discussed is the differences we hear (which we can). Some differences more easily than others, hence the discussion.

Note: I said discussion. Naysayers and flat earthers need better arguments than "you can't hear it".

All the best,
Nonoise

03-08-13: Irvrobinson
Let's ignore science for a moment, let's stick just to logic, something even you flat earthers can understand.

That is an interesting twist you used there Irv. I've always associated the cable non-believers with the flat earth scientist. Since they are the ones who limit their minds to the boundries of what present day science can explain. Cable believers are more like those who thought the earth to be round before science could catch up and prove it.

There will always be conservative folks, people who are bound to beliefs that have been tried and true from past learnings. There will also always be liberals, folks who believe that we should not limit our minds to what is currently known, that there are still worlds out there that remain unexplored. These two types differ in all facets of life, not just on audio forums.

There really is no use arguing, since so few of us are weak-minded enough to be easily swayed in either direction. I just wanted to clarify who the true 'flat earthers' are here, and that would be those that beleive what their eyes tell them about the current limited knowledge of human hearing.

I believe the human capacity to learn is an ongoing concept, not a finished work. Maybe it's because I suffer from health afflictions that modern science has not learned how to identify or correct yet. I do not feel alone, for thousands of years humans have suffered from real illness' that medical science could not explain or cure in their times. Science is limited by what the human mind can currently understand and explain. Science is ever-evolving, no matter how many flat earthers tell me what I can or cannot see, hear, taste, smell or feel. I have my own scientific measuring tools, one on either side of my head. :)

what is not considered here is the fallibility and unreliability of perception.

this means that one cannot know that there is a difference in the sound of cables, but that it is one's opinion that there is.

it has nothing to do with being open monded or closed minded.

our senses are imperfect and unreliable.

i won't presume to be aware of what someone else is hearing and will not contest his perceptions. i will reserve judgment tto listen and draw my own conclusions.

the important thing is not to be judgmental.

it does not matter in the abstract what someone says about matters of the sense, since no knowledge can be derived from them.

thus the discussion of cables being hyped, or components sounding different is academic.

live and let live.