Historical look at amps

Ar_t you won't find the H2O at a dealership, nor the eAR. Being they are rare, the odds they both are in the same room with your amp, and a Rowland, sounds like the stuff of fiction. Who, and how, did this shootout come about?

Let's settle this. Send your amps to California for review. I will pay shipping both ways. What have you got to lose?

BTW, The Gallo is not a planar, neither is the Meadowlark, nor German Physics... etc. etc. Like I said, do a search.

Seriously, I only saw one model Ayre amp. Can't even remember the model number. Heard several of them, in more than one location. They were the hot ticket to go with a certain Thiel speaker, that badly needed "taming". Last time I saw Charlie Hansen, he was at Avalon. If I knew more, I would say so. The only reason that I know as much as I do, they did silk screen the schematic on the inside of the lid.

OK.....tweeter level and amp brightness......as promised.

A buddy who designs speakers calls me one day, fretting over what level to set the tweeter on his latest product. If he used the one made by a mutual friend, it was one setting. If he used one of the "East Coast Big Boys", he had to set it 0.25 dB different. He asked for my advice.

My advice was: "Well, who is the target user? Since we all share dealers together, it may be a safe bet that they will have our CD player, and an amp/preamp combo by "our buddy". I would set it up to sound right with it."

"Yeah, but......if I do, it won't sound right on the other one."

"Who cares? None of your customers can afford that stuff."

"Yeah, but......if I send it to Stereophile, and they do a review on it, you know what kind of amp they are going to hook up to it."

"You're screwed, bub. You lose either way."

I know some of you are going; "A quarter of a dB. One quarter of a dB makes that much difference? C'mon, bub, you're pulling our leg."

Nope, 0.25 dB is a LARGE difference. You figure that level change on this speaker is from around 5 kHz to 20 kHz. Two octaves. Definitely the difference between "just right" and "too bright/too dark".

Back to amps........you-know-who frets about 0.2, maybe 0.3 dB, on his "digital" amps. From around 10 kHz to 20 kHz. One octave. Yes, not as wide a range, but I can assure you that much level difference in an octave is audible.

Just like the 0.25 dB over one octave in an RIAA network. In absolute numbers, taken at one point, not much. Added all together, over one or two octaves, a lot of energy.

OK.....more food for thought on amp design.

EVERY amp designer that I know will tell you, if they are honest, that if there is "too much" going on in the HF region (like overshoot in a cascode stage, very easy to do), that the bass will sound wrong. Getting the bass "right" on a conventional SS amp is not as easy as you might think. A lot of things can creep in that cause too much HF energy. Everything from circuit topology to power transformer and filter cap selection.

The worst sounding amp that I ever made had some fancy caps, intended for SMPS. Low ESR, low ESL, put several in parallel to lower those numbers even more.

Absolutely no bass at all. None. Zero. Nada. Useless for anything other than PA use.

Put in some regular ol' filter caps, only one per rail. Product ready to ship. Go figure.

agree, Herman, time to exit this thread.

Ar_t has been very helpful in revealing the dark secrets of amp design. I don't know if this "So why do you feel threatened when I tell the dark secrets of the world of amp design." was directed at me of Muralman1? IFFF it was directed at me, I'll say that I am not threatened in the very least. Au contraire, I stand to gain a lot more knowing the info shared in the thread. Your having 20 years of product design doesn't diminish my capabilities one bit. In fact, we can talk at the same level, which might be enjoyable.

Anyway, what should have been learnt from this thread is that manuf will do the bare minimum to disclose aspects of their design. Even good/very good manuf held in high(er) esteem by consumers. There is no standards committee in this audio consumer market that'll keep them honest. The only people who can do this is, us, the consumer. This will happen ONLY if we consumers are educated enough to ask them pointed questions that'll give us an idea of what the manuf might have done inside the product we are about to spend a ton of cash on. Like Ar_t said, if someone is putting down $3K on audio gear, expect some serious questions to be asked! Not unreasonable.
Also, don't simply eat hook, line & sinker what the manuf has to say about his product. Ask some serious questions. Try to understand their implementation.
By keeping manuf-consumer loop closed, both parties will benefit - we will supply feedback about their products, keep them honest & let them know where their performance is sub-par. Hopefully this will not fall on deaf ears & they'll make products that we are seeking using the best possible methods to implement them. You want audio to be around, we'd better help each other. No other way out. (you do this at your place of work with your suppliers, correct? why is audio any different?)

I did not say that I heard them at a dealer.

I sent them to guys who had aleady brought one of those models in to audition. And sent them back, unsatisfied. There are a few times when I found someone who actually owned one of those brands. There is a big difference when doing a serious side-by-side comparison, as opposed to a "shootout", where there has to be a winner and a loser.

Actually, you may recall, I didn't buy their explanation why they preferred ours over the others. Some guys get carried away exaggerating minor warts. The guys that I placed the most faith in their reasoning was the ones that said they all sounded very close, but chose ours for other reasons. Features........ease of use and interfacing.......looks, whatever. As grateful as I am when someone thinks ours sounds better, I tend to dismiss their enthusiasm when it overflows with superlatives.

I know the Gallo isn't planar. Strangest looking thing I have ever seen.

No, I am not doing a Google search, because I know the truth. I have to.......I build this stuff.

Honestly, I do not see why you seem so defensive. I have not maligned Henry's, or anyone else's, efforts on this genre of amps. I may have a different opinion wrt their pros and cons. They may be among the best we have to work with at present, but I seriously expect that we will have many other options in the near future. And you can rest assured that I will be just as honest and forthcoming about them, at that time.

Guys,
Oh no! You all have got Muralman started again!
To Muralman the H20's are the perfect amp, and can do no wrong...let him continue to live in his fantasy world.