Burned out hi fi salesman

Big Joe,

"i have a dealer near me who i like very much & after ive made my mind up on what i want i give him first dib's on making a sale,i tell him what i can get it for & ask for his price,if his price is close enough for me i buy it & if not im out the door with no hard feeling's."

If you never hear the product how do you know what you want? And once the sometimes extensive process of informing you on what you need, the store is then rewarded by you shopping around to dealers who have done zero to help you except take a phone call and lower the price. Then tomorrow lower the quality of help and selection available to you. Brilliant

Where I have my business I love it because despite my devils advocate position here I am very helpful and thrive because all the other dealers in my area are as those who are generally grumbling about the stores say. But they weren't always that way. Since the home theater purchaser spends more and is an easier sale and allows for reasonable margins dealers are catering directly to them. Hopefully your getting the economic picture of audiophiles viability.

"you said audiophile's should stop worring about saving money & reward good service & stop being selfish all the time,what a stupid & self serving thing to say"

Bigjoe, I don't rely on high end audio clients to survive or even prosper, that would be stupid. I'm telling you what I know from the inside out. I've worked many places where audiophiles are no longer welcomed and as policy actively discouraged to "hang out". For some of the reasons listed in my two posts above.

Finally HenryHK,

Audiophiles do not recognize the incredible effort it takes to appease them, that's why in-Home dealers are desirable by most because they have limited product setup in a stabile environment. Demoing for an audiophile with a good system in a store setting is very, very difficult.

You do not seem to recognize the incredibly limited market represented by audiophiles and lets not forget that if the street was working in balance the hifi store would be a great source of free entertainment. But for the most part that two way street is in disarray and not by any one individuals action or attitude but more out of neccessity and economics.

In closing;

The diversity represented here in system sound=

more manufacturers---lower volume----higher prices----more retail outlets with less volume----lower margins----lower quality of personnel----lowered experience and services.

Everyone is losing.

I'd love to know what percentage of Audiogon forum posters have actually bought anything from a brick and mortar audio dealer since they've joined Audiogon. My guess is the numbers are very low. Is this because of the higher prices? That's one reason, but I'd wager it's because most Audiogoners either don't need advice and service or don't want it. One of the main purposes of Audiogon is to provide a way for us to support and educate each other rather than rely on retailers or reviewers; that's certainly why I'm here. I'm still in my audio infancy (maybe a toddler by now) and the advice and insight I've gained here has been invaluable. I can get tens or hundreds of opinions on something whereas if I go to a retail store I'll get one. It will likely be a well thought out and valid opinion, but still only one opinion.

Cinematic_systems is right that no brick and mortar store could stay in business just selling to audiophiles. They have no value to add to our market other than providing a listening room, and most of us realize you can only truly audition at home in your own room with the rest of your own equipment. The other things they provide most Audiogoners don't need. Opinions? We get an abundance here. Prices? New gear cheaper via Internet retailers; used gear WAY cheaper here or on eBay. Service? Most Audiogoners do all their own setup and tweaking; they wouldn't have it any other way.

Are brick and mortar retailers being squeezed out? Of course they are, just like corner hardware stores are losing out to Home Depot; the entire consumer marketplace is changing. Cinematic_systems and other retailers like him will do what they have to do to survive; if that means concentrating on the "Home Theater" buyer, you can't blame them. If that means they can't offer service to the audiophile crowd, I can live with that. I'm perfectly happy here, learning a lot, chuckling at the impassioned debates, forming my own opinions, buying used gear at great prices, and having a blast both putting together my system and listening to the increasing better music it provides.

It's a shame that there aren't more places like Salon 1 Audio-out of business.I hooked up with Bruce Jacobs/S1A in 1984,through a friends' referral.They stocked almost 500 different brands,and were available for home auditions.Generally,Bruce and his top sales person could give you a good handle on what a unit would sound like.After auditioning several units and relating the experience,they could guide you to a pieve that was a near-ideal match.That is how I learned about audio gear,and why I went to work for S1A.As much work as it was( even with the presence of a few tire-kickers),at the end of the day it made me happy to know that I had helped others derive a little pleasure from this hobby.
I suppose it's a big wide wonderful world,there's room for everybody-just don't let the sour-pusses cloud it up for you.Happy holidays-and listening.Tom

99% of the time a salesman does have a system at home, it barely has any piece's in it that he sells!! If he is a true music lover anyway this could be the case, or he's a BMW salesman that drives a Corvette, and is just there cause its a job. If he owns the store thats a different story, cause then he can try to carry the brands he believes is the best.

Cinematic_Systems: Thanks for the posterboy!

Your niche interest in niche audio is exactly my point. Who's going to make a living selling that stuff?

I never aspired to keep the whole high-end industry going. But here are a couple of increasing number of enthusiasts who are out there, that might make at least a "partial" living from it: Jim at Sounds Real Audio, Terry Cain, Don Garber, Nelson Pass, Graham Fowler etc. At least my money is going directly to the ones, who actually do provide a service.

Do you think you can convince me that you have a good sounding system? That when I listen to it will sound like the artist intended? I think not.

How do you know what the artist intended? Do you use studio monitors and listen to your records on how the producer/artist intended it? Maybe the intended for it a little boom box or as great car music?

I'm sure its magical and musical for you but is it "good sound" or just your sound?

Isn't that the purpose of music? To make ME enjoy it? I would say that my current system, at this price, is the best one I heard coming close to live Jazz, as I hear it at the clubs close by. The Sax sounds like a Sax.

Fact is most audiophiles like yourself are equally gullible, how hard would it be to mount a $90 Fostex Driver in a box? Well I've already had my runin with the Cain&Cain boys on a DIY forum. People have bought Thiels CS1.6's despite the huge distortion spike in the midrange. What are we doing as a group? Why are we supporting this sort of product? Cause it "sounds good?" Does it really?

Maybe I am gullible? Maybe making a nice box and mounting a driver in that nice of a box is quite hard? Mounting several in an even uglier box with a couple of circuit elements - is that really harder? Anyway, this is beside the point and it just seems like you have a personal problem with Cain, but maybe that's just your ears? I did measure the Abby’s in room frequency response and it was certainly not worse than Spender S3/5 (which are supposed to be flat and quite good.) I don't expect everyone to like this system: I am sure many would be unsatisfied with the bass response, but then bass is not important to make a violin sound like a violin. Given a budget constraint one has to choose his poison and what one can live with. In fact I recommended quite different systems to two friends: 1) a Linn Classic with Spender S3/5, 2) a Magenta hometheater system with a Denon receiver. For both, it represented pretty much what they wanted. Different people, different objectives.

When's the last time you worked for free Rene? Are you entitled at $3000 for free services, did he have a sign that said so? He made $1200 in profit on your purchase? When you make $1200 a week, do you work for free for your employer...hell no you don't

To get back to topic: Dealers used to mount a cartridge when you bought both, cartridge and turntable from them. He even saved the time to demo the turntable it in store (to low priced to even mount a cartridge for display). And yes, he said he would mount it...
As for the pay: Hell, I am making less than $1200 in TWO weeks. Maybe the expectation of making the big money as a sales person have grown a little out of proportion. And maybe if he would have performed the service I would have sent two friends back there so that he could make 3 times $1200 profit that week.

Maybe I understand the burnout of dealers and frustration just too well, but I would hope for most to keep some enthusiasm for audio. I got a Ph. D. in physics only because I am enthusiastic about physics, and no, money isn't everything Quite often I do work quite late, after hours, and during unpaid breaks. Maybe you should get your job satisfaction from something you enjoy. I understand it is very, very easy to get burned out if you are enthusiastic. Take a look around most physics departments at universities: Most people are burned out since they are not the one earning that six figure salary in industry and that just because they chose to not do that and instead do fundamental research. Does that mean I blame the public for not appreciating fundamental research in quantum mechanics...?

The diversity presented by audiophiles is killing the hobby ... Fact is we don't hear all that differently from one another ... no instead we all have different goals for why we have a system. Until we can focus as a group this will get worse.

I think your ideal customer just walked away with a Bose system from Best Buy. Diversity is why this market exists in first place. If all of us would be so gullible and fall in line, we would have followed the Wal-Mart culture and go with a Sony system in first place. Of course like you said: We follow reviews and recommendations quite often blindly. But didn't you just ask us to follow a dealer's advice blindly. And no, we do hear differently: We have different budget, different tastes in music, and my wife listens very differently than me.

Anyway, we obviously have fairly opposing opinions and visions on where this hobby should go. Sorry for this lengthy response and if this one got a little off topic or maybe not so :)

All the best,

Rene