Anacrusis, the issue of tubes is not only about tonality. Sit at a piano and hit a few keys. Do the notes abruptly truncate or do they gradually decay? Then listen to piano music through your favorite ss and tube phono stage, line stage and amplifier...even DAC. My listening observations over the years indicates that the ss devices do more to screw up the signal in this regard than do the tubes. The ss devices simply destroy the fundamental characteristics of the piano. Repeat this process with saxaphone and vocal music. The results are the same.
Tube Characterization: 6DJ8, 6922, 7308 Part II
This is a continuation of the thread:
Tube Characterization: 6DJ8, 6922, 7308, CCa, etc
This above thread was dense with information regarding tube selection, classification and characterization but like many threads, branched off into more specific areas of focus. Though I would definitely refer to this original thread as a point of reference, what I would like to do here is condense much of the information specific to it's original intention. The objective evaluation of 6Dj8 family of tubes.
One of the most thoughtful responses and one for which I am most grateful is:
The questions are:
1) Can a tube within an audio component be evaluated for its sonic qualities or will the associated circuitry be so influential on the sound that such an evaluation would be pointless unless put into a specific context (ie the same preamp)
2) Will a tube retain enough of its sonic signature with specific components or specific circuits to make such an evaluation fruitful?
3) Is there an objective language or terminology that we can use which will make such an evalutaion comprehensible?
Many of the most experienced audiophiles in this forum feel that it can not be done, at least meaningfully. A number of others feel reservedly that it can and a few are of the opinion "let's give it a go". Some just find pleasure in trying out different brands on a casual basis(a very sane point of view imo).
Some contributers feel and for good reason that the manufacturer used certain tubes for good reason and that tube rolling would just be making trade-offs. If you want a different sound, buy a different preamp, cd player, what have you.
Before anyone undertakes such a study they should refer to the existing information contained in "Joe's Tube Lore", and evaluations done by Vintage Tube Sevices, VAC, and Vacuum Tube Valley, especailly issue #7 (thanks to Jab and Rchau). Consider that some components are just more sensitive to tube changes than others. Lastly, be sure that you can return, at least exchange tubes for
One comment by Atmasphere I found particulary interesting was his assertion that:
There is also a strong contingent of contributers that feel nos tubes are inherently better sounding than nns tubes. At the prices some old stock tubes are going for I find it difficult to believe that a modern tube manufacturer can't duplicate or even improve construction methods producing superior tubes and still make a nice profit but that so far does not seem to be the case.
Imin2u, if you are still interested, may I suggest starting with some of those tubes you have that haven't otherwise been reviewed and we can start putting them through their paces. We can move from there to confirming existing findings.
I invite anyone who would like to be a part of this experiment to tell us a little about the sound your favorite 6DJ8, what you use it in and if you'd be willing to run other tubes through your system.
Tube Characterization: 6DJ8, 6922, 7308, CCa, etc
This above thread was dense with information regarding tube selection, classification and characterization but like many threads, branched off into more specific areas of focus. Though I would definitely refer to this original thread as a point of reference, what I would like to do here is condense much of the information specific to it's original intention. The objective evaluation of 6Dj8 family of tubes.
One of the most thoughtful responses and one for which I am most grateful is:
My advice if you are tube rolling is to be careful about documenting what you are doing, and make sure you can return tubes that you buy from NOS/antique dealers! *Above all* remember that you are supposed to be having fun and don't go off the deep end. Its not prettyTo this end I have decided to cool my jets a little and take a more moderate approach.
The questions are:
1) Can a tube within an audio component be evaluated for its sonic qualities or will the associated circuitry be so influential on the sound that such an evaluation would be pointless unless put into a specific context (ie the same preamp)
2) Will a tube retain enough of its sonic signature with specific components or specific circuits to make such an evaluation fruitful?
3) Is there an objective language or terminology that we can use which will make such an evalutaion comprehensible?
Many of the most experienced audiophiles in this forum feel that it can not be done, at least meaningfully. A number of others feel reservedly that it can and a few are of the opinion "let's give it a go". Some just find pleasure in trying out different brands on a casual basis(a very sane point of view imo).
Some contributers feel and for good reason that the manufacturer used certain tubes for good reason and that tube rolling would just be making trade-offs. If you want a different sound, buy a different preamp, cd player, what have you.
Before anyone undertakes such a study they should refer to the existing information contained in "Joe's Tube Lore", and evaluations done by Vintage Tube Sevices, VAC, and Vacuum Tube Valley, especailly issue #7 (thanks to Jab and Rchau). Consider that some components are just more sensitive to tube changes than others. Lastly, be sure that you can return, at least exchange tubes for
One comment by Atmasphere I found particulary interesting was his assertion that:
If you are dealing with the best of the best in all tube types you will find them all very close.and also adds that the 6SN7 series of tube is iherently better than the 6DJ8 series and to me supports the idea of just changing preamps. By the way Raymond Chowkwanyun of enjoythemusic does a capsule review of this tube type: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0304/6sn7.htm
There is also a strong contingent of contributers that feel nos tubes are inherently better sounding than nns tubes. At the prices some old stock tubes are going for I find it difficult to believe that a modern tube manufacturer can't duplicate or even improve construction methods producing superior tubes and still make a nice profit but that so far does not seem to be the case.
Imin2u, if you are still interested, may I suggest starting with some of those tubes you have that haven't otherwise been reviewed and we can start putting them through their paces. We can move from there to confirming existing findings.
I invite anyone who would like to be a part of this experiment to tell us a little about the sound your favorite 6DJ8, what you use it in and if you'd be willing to run other tubes through your system.
- ...
- 34 posts total
Post removed |
Jafox, I agree with you even when listening to Glenn Gould:) These are some of the reasons that, personally, I prefer tubes. I think that perhaps the attack of ss is more realistic only in that it is more immediate. Tubes are definitely more realistic in they allow transients to decay. This is why I have always held the belief that tubes are ideal compliments to electrostatics or ribbons. Where tubes may lack in attack stats excel. Where tubes may lack in bass definition, stats excel. Of course these are generalizations but the idea is there. One of the reasons I'm so impressed with the Valvo E188CCs that I'm using in my DK is that after 25 years of electrostatics, I have purchased some dynamic speakers with transmission line bass. The Valvos seem to have this unlimited current delivery and have such great structure and definition at the bottom end. Like a great Class A (constant current) ss amp. The sound from top to bottom is marvelous. But even then, I'll be purchasing a tube integrated soon and when I can afford them a pair of Quad 989s as a system for my den, so there you go. By the way, I think this is the tube: http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/Valvo%20E88CC/E88CC12.htm |
Specifics are absolutely necessary..I'm sorry for not mentioning my current rig (one of very many over the years, tubes and ss). Mcintosh MC501's with C46 and MF A5 CD player with mu-vista tube output stage. Cabling is all MIT Magnum M1 stuff. Speakers are Dynaudio C4's. Just thought it was interesting that the sound I'm getting is a nice balance between the best attributes of both ss and tubes!! |
- 34 posts total