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Tube amp for rock? Newb Questions

Ive been plowing though the posts here and thought this seems like a place I could find some more help.

Anyway, I listen to rock about 80% of the time. Anything from very heavy metal to 80s rock. Some blues, some softer rock, and Pink Floyd, I dont mind jazz or big band or female vocalists, but im off point....mostly rock. My room is about 12X22.

Im upgrading a very mainstream set of components that ive just sort of lived with for years:
Yamaha CDC 905 Changer
JVC 518VBK AV Reciever
Kenwood JL-680 3-Way, 12"main, 92db, 70w, Circa 1989 Speakers

Going to a hi-fi shop of any kind is just not realistic on a regular basis(very remote) so im leaning heavily on the forums and reviews online to gauge a direction.

So far ive tried a Cambridge Azur 340A and now currently demoing a 540A (both along with a set of AudioQuest ICs). Honestly the ICs made a huge leap with my original setup..I was impressed. Anyway, the CA amps are very musical, more imaged and more detailed. However my initial impression is these are not rock amps. Negatives are the guitars are now more "in the back" so to speak, more harshness/treble/brightness, and also a more general laid back sense, almost like the corners of big rock and roll hits are rounded off if that makes sense.

Am I on track that these amps arent rock amps? Or is it possible the speakers are now more exposed for their faults? Ditto the CD player?

To take this further, I feel whats most associated with "rock" or "heavy metal" are punch, power, volume and bass. I agree....to a point. Ill take killer midrange over heavy bass, and what good are punch, power and volume without feel, subtleties and tone?

As a side note, ive been playing guitar for 20+ years, when talking guitar amps, IMO there is nothing to discuss, tube is FAR superior to SS. I particularly like EL84 juiced amps, smooth, warm amd sweet. Is there a correlation with tube audio?

I dont want to start the "what to upgrade first" debate, ive read all the many many opinions....:) Im open to speakers or source, but right now looking at amps(with my system im thinking just pick one and get started...bad idea?)

I know some feel SS is the way to go for a rock amp, but currently im assuming based on my experiences so far and guitar tastes im going to like tube amps. I certainly could be wrong.

I like the talk about the Manley Stingray. Ive read everything every search engine will find about it and talked to Manley as well as some dealers. Any opinions on it for my wants/need? What about the Prologue 2 or the Jolidas? Are then in the same ball park as the Stingray or are we talking a step down?

For speakers ive looked at and considering(based on $$) the Athena F2.2s, Paradigm Espirits, and most others in this price range, but also found some Dali Towers that are slightly more(may get a chance to hear them in a couple of weeks). Based on my future plans/$/listening habits, any recommendations?

I hope tihs is semi-clear, I appreciate any thoughts, Thanks!
zamdrang
pubul57
3,712 posts
 
It seems the question is better asked as S"peakers for Rock", because any amp can rock if it is mated to the right speaker. I imagine that some Klipsch speakers will rock with almost any amp, even your Stingray. I think that all that rock bass energy is really above 60Hz, you don't really here the real low stuff, but you do feel it and it increase or better portrays the venue's space.
gregm
3,405 posts
 
Zam -- to generalise the issue: when I want s/thing to rock, I mean (among other things) I want to hear and feel the staccato, the sudden, the hard & the soft sound (whichever the rock player intended) -- and of course some of the impact energy contained in bass & percussion. This stands for rock music.
For rock you need the impact and the sudden acceleration & precise breaking (to use an automotive analogy).

In classical, restitution in harmonics, perceptibility and duration, and phase & timing (among other things) are absolutely necessary.

Having said that the applications (i.e. systems) MAY be different in both cases you ideally need ENERGY to emanate from the speakers.

To all intents and purposes, the most acoustic energy that can be had today will come from extremely sensitive speakers, i.e. ones that produce the most spl for each unit of power fed to them...
Failing that, you have to choose very powerful amplification and spkrs using very robust drivers that can take power abuse (i.e. mostly pro) .

Flimsy, designer, hi-end stuff ain't going to do it (or will typically cost more than a house + swimming pool)

And a final point: in an attempt to play, say, 89-92dB speakers "louder" rather than at whispering level, the loud musical passage is very likely to produce distortion and eventually blow one of the anaemic mid-woofs used in many spkrs. Why? Because to get the impact of, say, Mr Pastorius' slamming his bass chord in full musical transcendence (worse still, take a BBC recording of J Hendrix) you may feed the drivers with a gazilion watts for a few milliseconds even more, and this will be recurring -- you're listening to music after all...
They'll blow or if not, complain.
Cheers
pubul57
3,712 posts
 
I agree, the focus needs to be on the speaker. Then get enough watts to drive that speaker - you don't necessarily need a lot of watts, depends on the speaker.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,793 posts
 
I use the Classic Audio Reproductions T-3. The speaker is 8 ohms (newer versions are 16), goes from an honest 20Hz to about 40KHz, and is 97 db 1 watt/1 meter.

I can shake the building with our 60 watt amp. Check out:

http://www.atma-sphere.com/awards/bya/index.html

for a discography of bass reference recordings.

While having full bass extension, the speaker is also finely detailed, images beautifully and is easy to set up. With 60 watts, its almost impossible to clip the amp in my room (17'x22', 9' ceiling).

The difference between 89 db and 97 db is 8 db; that means to do the same thing on an 89 db speaker will take about 400 watts. Many amps, especially ones with feedback and operating in some mode other than class A, will strain at higher power levels. To get punch out of them without strain (harshness) you need efficiency. To get the distortion down (which enhances transparency/detail) you need to keep the speaker impedance up as the amp will make less distortion.
zamdrang OP
33 posts
 
The Rotel has arrived. First impression...this thing rocks. Snappy is a good word, forward, very clear, but not overly bright.

Only tried it with my Kenwoods (they are closer to the front door..:)) and id say its slightly less dimensional then the stingray, not as sweet on the soft stuff...but its got punch and power, and the bass thumps, the contour switch is very cool. For me...it betters the SR.

One peculiar thing: with my "better" audioquest ICs...its fatiguing. But with the cheap $2 ICs I got in a bargain bin at the local hardware store, its warmer and more lush....maybe they are just less transparent and hiding things...and thats the reason....but I didnt ever expect to prefer them.

We'll see how it goes with the Dalis....more to come...
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