MC402 vs FPB 300cx

Jc51373, I think the MAC you had probably needed more break in.....just giving it a benefit of a doubt.

I've heard the MC402 amp bunch of times and never really found the highs harsh, but did find the overall presentation uninvolving. There I completely agree with you. You have to like this type of sound to appreciate the MAC. That is why usually most people who like McIntosh gear don't like Audio Research, Krell and Pass.
I prefer the sonic presentation of ARC, Krell or Pass. They just draw a more honest sonic picture.
I also like Levinson gear, although it is more on the darker side, but still involving and musical.

Jc51373,

the quote "I was disappointed when I first got it. The bass was there alright, but the highs sounded harsh, voices sharp." is correct - but not the context. As I wrote as well, and mentioned in this thread, all this completely changed after the amp was burned in. Otherwise, I obviously would not have kept the 402.

I want to make a few more points.

First, I am not at all an offended Mac-owner. Like Mike, I was astonished to see your comments, because it it just the opposite what McIntosh-users, listeners and reviewers experience all over the world.

There is valid criticism of McIntosh to be made -e.g. that they are not the most detailed amps. This is true from what I have heard myself, when I exchanged my 402 for a Densen power amp. I was able to hear a detail I could not hear with the Mac.

Otherwise, however, the Densen was inferior in the areas that matter to me: a musical, weighty bass, a natural presentation, and so on. The points you make seem to be completely out of line of the typical experience, and so I highly doubt that these are valid points in general.

Moreover, I get very critical when I hear, or see, people writing in absolute terms:

"It is my belief McIntosh and Krell are in two completely diffent classes" or "I basically think the Mac is a tier below what I thought it would be, nice entry-level amp, but not for someone looking to move up from a Krell piece."

This kind of sweeping, generalizing statement is something I would never make - at least not today. My experience in two decades as an audiophile is that absolute statements of this kind are usually nonsense.

Amps, like everything else, depend on a lot of factors to work successful: cables, preamp, room acouctics, you name it. One thing I have learned is that even the own listening experiences have to be taken with a large grain of salt, and that they are not generally valid.

One example: I like LAT International cables a lot, and have recommended them to many a friend, to their benefit. Once, however, I tried the LATs in the system of a friend, who has the same speakers - Shahinian Diapason - but other equipment. The LATs, in his system, were not as good as in mine. Likewise, he gave me some Goertz Alphacore cable to try, which sounded shrill and awful in my system - but wonderful in his.

When I wrote " you may lack the experience necessary to judge components on their own merit", I did not mean you lacked the experience of listenening to the 402, but that you lack the experience of putting it into context. I stay with that statement.

And lastly: Yes, I have listened to a Krell amp in my system, I found it to offer amazing bass, but not sounding as musical as the Mac. But I do not think Mac makes the "better" amp - it is different, and works better in my system, for my taste.
Regards,
Florian Hassel

Ok, done with this...I think I put into context very well the differences in an above response if you read through. Moving on....

Audphile1, I auditioned for only about an hour the 803d's. Smooth as silk...I actually had the dealer a/b back and forth from my current speaker 804 to the 803d, was very different.

I am not going to say I don't like the sound of my 804's anymore like I thought would happen-Phew! But the 803d is undoubtedly a better more balanced sounding speaker. Here is my contention with this potential upgrade- 1) price is a big jump from where I am now 2) Although much better, price to upgrade does not match the improvement in sound I heard 3) they are hugemungous-ginormous : ) 4) this is a personal preference, but I do not like the look of the extra driver (grills solve this).

So that leaves me with one remaining question for you...What about an upgrade to the newer 803s?? Too lateral? I am not looking to blow my head of with bass, but a nice low end usually ads to mid range smoothness and perception as well.

For the moment the 803s is more attainable, and quite honestly I like the height and look of them better.

803d's are in fact everything everyone here on the forums say they are though.

I told ya the 803D kick ass.
The speakers that made me not want to listen to my system for about 2 days were the Wilson Alexandria run by all top of the line Levinson(33H monos, top preamp and player). other than that, I have not experienced anything yet that made me not want to listen to my system whan I got home. Well, aside from some live performances I heard of course, so....

Here is my take:
going from your speakers to 803S is a big jump in performance. Low end, soundstaging, ability to play more effortlessly, it's all there. Actually between the N803 and N804 there was a big difference when my friend was buying the speakers. He intially wanted the N804 but once he listened to the same cut on the N803 it was all over.

For me though, what actually sets apart the 803D from the 803S is not only the extra bass driver(which I love by the way because the bass has tremendous impact that my N803 can not even touch) but the tweeter.
The D tweeter is silky smooth and really detailed in the most natural way. And to me the 803Ds are the best balance of all good(including price/performance ratio) things in the B&W 800 line. The new diamond tweeter is worlds apart from the older tweeter, which if I am not mistaking is on the 803S. The 803S is like I said a very nice step up from your N804 anyway. Actually the 803S go a bit deeper in the bass than my N803. Which is nice, but the tweeter man....the tweeter....that for me is the main attraction on the 803D.
I think if you can swing the 803Ds, you will not regret it. The difference between the 803S and 803D you heard could have been limited by electronics, but with your Krell, the 803Ds should be just excellent. My opinion, but your money, so it's all up to you, but you know what the 803D sound like and you know what you are missing, but can you live without what the 803Ds do? If yes, then cool.