Tube rolling, Macintosh MC275 Mk IV

Tennis, I haven't any experience rolling Mac preamp tubes (for one thing I don't have a tube preamp.) Generally speaking, an amplifier (of whatever stripe) has more affect (along with the speakers of course) over a system's sonics than anything else, simply because that's where the signal is magnified many times. In any case, hearing is believing, and the differences we experienced were not subtle -- especially between the stock Mac tubes and all the others. And, as I indicated, I purposely included non-audio folk in my tests to avoid any audiophile "wishful hearing" ;--)

Mr. Hinton must be politic in his remarks, of course. But if you go over to Audiokarma, you'll discover that Ron Cornelius (McIntosh Product Manager) is using Penta Labs KT88SC's in his new 275; and although he won't/can't say, has probably changed out all the little McChina tubes as well. I got the same line from McIntosh as you did, but try and keep your thinking open, and you could reap unimagined rewards.
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Mrtennis - I am puzzled. The C200 preamp is all solid state. Are you referring to the C220?

my mistake. i am referring to the c220.

regarding the 275. chuck hinton told me a funny story. he said a customer placed 12at7 tubes in the sockets marked "12ax7" and placed 12ax7 in the sockets marked "12at7".
the result ? no damage to the amp or tubes.

i have several sets of 12at7 and several sets of 12ax7. i will keep an open mind and see if i hear any meaningful differences.

my experiences so far with current production tubes components is that replacing stock tubes does not significantly alter the sound. that is, what differences do occur don't matter.

my experience includes cd players and preamps.

i would love to be present at some of the sessions cited by audiogon members where several sets of nos tubes replaced stock tubes. it is possible that my threshold for experiencing meaningful differences is greater than that of other audiophiles.

i will report back after i have investigated the effect of replacing the stock 12at7 and 12ax7 following the break-in of the mc 275.

Tennis, when I get them back from the individual quoted in my initial post, I'd be happy to send you some to try. (Maybe I should start a tube 'Lending Library, like the Cable Co. ;--) But if you go to Ebay and get three NOS RCA 12AX7 blackplates (or I know a seller who has them for around $25 ea. and they're money-back guaranteed) you can hear for yourself. If you're smart enough to choose an MC275, I'm sure the rest of your system is good enough for you to hear the difference ;--)
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I know this is a '275 thread but I wanted to share some of my anecdotal experience regarding tube rolling in Mac gear.

But first...
I was at the dealer and we unpacked the large MA2275 first to make sure everything worked. Then the dealer and I started inserting the 12ax7/t7 tubes into the sockets. We didn't know at the time that we placed the 12aT7 into the 12aX7 sockets and vice-versa for the other 12aT7 sockets... we didn't know at first and we listened for a few hours... we (including the other salespersons) were marveling at the sound and then a customer came in, looked at the amp and said, "hey you got the toobs wrong!" D'oh! After all that, there was no apparent damage to the circuit or the tubes as far as we could tell.. the resident technician yelled at us and then also marvelled at the lack of damage (and the good sound).
So we re-read the labels this time ;-) and re-inserted the tubes the correct way. More listening ensued and lots of customers drooled over the sound of this integrated amp. This was the first 2275 the dealer had ever ordered so it was a special treat for us to actually unpack and audition it at the store ;-)

... So the folks at Mac gave me the same story: "Tube rolling is futile..." Of course I was more tempted then ever to try rolling some KT88s. So out came the Mac toobs and in went some beautiful JJ KT88s kidnapped from my Cary Rocket 88.

Normally I'm open minded when it comes to these matters, and I was prepared to believe either side. Would Mac be right or would audiophiles save the day? To be honest I didn't really want to hear ANY differences because (selfishly) I didn't want to take my Rocket 88's tubes out of service in my other system. Also, I was very satisfied with the sound from the 2275 so why bother...

Well! I'd be darned if I didn't hear a significant difference from the JJ tubes. The most significant difference was a more extended, impactful bass. The soundstaging was a bit deeper and the highs slightly more extended. Wow! I was expecting at the most some small differences in tonality, but not of this magnitude.

I haven't even begun to roll some 12axxx tubes yet, and I'm sure there will be some sonic differences as well. The bottom line is that there ARE discernible sonic differences between tubes when rolled in Mac gear, just like any other piece of gear.

best,
-Greg