Build location for tube integrateds

I guess the point I was trying to make above is that for those who need some sort of empirical evidence to justify their purchase, a tube amplifier isn't for them. I believe the reason being we do not yet know how to correlate a test to the phenomena of music.

Those who take measurements and make declarations based on them regardless of what is in front of them need to be assess what the definition of a scientist or engineer actually is. As an example, if everyone can see that grass is green with the eyes that God gave them, but it measures "pink" using a sacred colorimeter, who is right, those who feel the grass is green or pink?

The resurgence of tubes over the past generation (against all odds and their disadantages in terms of cost, weight, heat, efficiency, maintenance, lack of supply of good tubes, as well as "scientific evidence") can be explained by not much more than there are those willing to trust themselves over what we are consistently told we hear or do not hear.

Bottom line, I don't listen to square waves (or anything else of that ilk), I listen to music. And, because that is what I care about, I listen to music through tube amplifiers.

I recently made the switch from SS to tubes so this thread and Zamdrang's on "tubes for rock" have been interesting to me. I listen to a wide range of music, and I occasionally spin rock recordings (last night it was Audioslave, followed my a series of different "chicks with guitars" as a friend calls them).

I'm using a Rogue Tempest II, a KT-88 integrated with 45 watts in triode (90 in ultralinear) which replaced a Musical Fidelity A5 with 255 watts into 8 ohms. The MF had better control of the bass, but besides that there is no comparison to me, the Rogue is a much more musical machine. Like guitar amps, the Rogue has a much fuller, more rounded, sweeter overall sound than a SS amp, much more musical. It's not even close plus tube rolling has let me tailor the sound somewhat.

To use tubes to good effect for rock where dynamics are important, your choice of speaker is critical. If you pair a tube amp with speakers voiced to have that "classic British sound" (Spendor, Harbeth, etc.) you'll get absolutely beautiful mids but rolled off dynamics, bass, and treble (in general, of course). If dynamics and slam are a top priority for you, you'll probably hate the pairing as it is likely to be too lush.

For me, I found that using a speaker with that warmish profile made the SS amp listenable. When I bought speakers that were voiced to be more dynamic (Paradigm 100), the SS made them sound pretty awful, just too forward in the treble, too edgy and harsh.

But dynamic speakers paired with the tube Rogue is just right for me in terms of a balance that has some of that sweet tube vibe but still gives me a wide dynamic range. Not as wide as SS and not as much slam, but much more musical overall. A nice balance for me.

So I'd suggest that a warmish SS amp (Plinius?) with warm speakers is one way to go to stay musical with good dynamics; tubes with less warm speakers are another. I don't think you can discuss an amp without discussing the speakers in terms of having a chance to hit your sonic target (hey, that's a good name for a band, grin).

Good luck!

Steidlguitars, interesting view. Based on what ive been through so far id say your on the money. The speaker choice is not only critical to match to the amp, but also to match to your type of music. My tube setup, while not necessarily bad, in fact damn good for the soft stuff....really didnt cut it for rock and metal. I wonder if a more dynamic speaker would have made me feel different.

I like Trelja's thoughts too, But I have to admit, I find it interesting that the "scientific" facts of my set up....and what it sounded like were somewhat aligned with one another.

The amplifier/speaker matchup is so important, that I find it almost impossible to evaluate, or make claims about the sound of either component (any amp or speaker) indepently of that system context - one can come to assess either an amp or a speaker very differently based on the match between these two components. This makes evaluations more difficult, but it is the only way to find great sound and make recommendations IMHO.

I agree to an extent but with SS, which I'm familiar with, a house sound is there to one degree or another no matter which speaker is used with it. For example MF equipment always sounds the same to me. Other examples are Krell, ML, Ayre, Naim, Theta. Now within certain brands or brands that have a broad product offering I can hear differences. Probably the best example of this is McIntosh. Their low-end integrateds sound vastly different from their high-end separates. One other caveat - the speakers can't be different technologies, for lack of a better word. For example I wouldn't compare horns to regular dome drivers to electrostatics but as a generalization I can hear the brand sound pretty clearly. The difference the speakers make vis-a-vis the brand of amp is in degree not in kind.
regards, David