Questions about Preamp Tubes

Newbee,

"What I hear when I listen to a tube component, as compared to a ss component, is the tube component lacks what I would call 'grain'."

I think this is the essence of it.

But the question to me is it natural grain or artificially introduced by the recording and/or playback system? Natural grain maybe irrating, but it is what it is. If the equipment introduces grain, then that is not a good thing.

I have heard many good SS systems with just decent digital sources that do not sound "grainy". My system is one example.

Often when there is a problem, it is because the components may not be matched well or the problem may be in the recording itself (natural or introduced during the recording creation process), but I am convinced from listening experience and testing for such things that it is not in the fact that these are SS devices, IMHO.

I would not equate a technical solution like SS or tube to different natural performance venues though. These are two different factors/issues.

Live performances seldom sound perfect either. Many instruments, like violins can have a natural grain to them. Different violin designs sound different, some are considered better than others.

I think SS is inherently better at reproducing the source more correctly, for better or for worse. Tubes I think smooth over some of the rough spots (grain), which as a listener does have its appeal as well. Nothing new here....

Towards the high end of audio, I think these differences do converge and become more alike, but it costs more to achieve it via tubes in general. Even then no two SS or two tube systems will sound exactly alike. The significant differences may be more a result of designer choice regarding how they want their product to sound.

I am currently comparing two highly touted phono-preamps and to my ears it is exactly as Newbee has pointed out. There is the SS, which was raved about in all the mags, incredibly fast, delivering a mass of highly defined and detailed information, so much so, that at first listening I sat there with my mouth open, but soon I found the sound had an unnatural edge, a brightness which made me uncomfortable. On the other hand the tubed unit, where I found rise and decay in its micro timing much closer to what I am used to hear in a live event at my usual row in the hall. Where the SS unit almost explosively assaulted my ears, in perfect timbre yes, every instrument placed clearly on a magnificently delineated stage, the tubed unit did everything almost as well, just a tad less "dramatic", very liquid, but this had the SS unit too, apart from the fact that I heard practically no grain, no veil in its musical rendering, but the tubed unit had something galore, which is rare, it had bloom, it gave an idea of the aura around instruments, which you hear clearly in reality, but rarely in front of your rig. Now what we call bloom, to my mind and knowledge will only be made possible, if as Newbee has mentioned, the rendering of transients, rise and decay times are closer to the real thing, although per se it is a different kettle of fish from what we call a perfect rendering of transients, I believe.

Had not the "gestalt" of music been formed from early age on by live music for me, I would have fallen for the SS- unit. Its totally grainfree, incredibly detailed, dynamically effortless rendering of any kind of instrument, music and voices placed on an impressive sound stage is simply breathtaking. But something is wrong: You cannot say that there is no air. There is, but in a very subtle sense the music does not "breathe", one note is hardly finished and you already have the next thrown at you , perfectly carved out in absolutely perfect timbre everything, but in a very, very subtle, -exaggerated by me, however nonetheless irritating - sense. It is as if each note were somehow alone, does not properly coalesce with the next, as would be the case in the real world of music. The tubed unit does this right. Its musical rendering is much closer to my idea of the gestalt of music. But where bright lights are thrown, as if were, on the music through the SS unit, here the lights are a tad more subdued.

I won't mention names, the tubed unit his highly renowned but has never been properly reviewed, the SS unit is famous amongst reviewers. They describe it in the most glowing terms. Possibly they are less familiar with live music as the music lovers amongst us audiophiles. But then (grin) perhaps my set up is faulty, a fault most certainly kindly glossed over by the gentle and euphonic distortion of tubes......(;

Detlof,

Which two phono pre-amps are you comparing? What is the rest of the system?

Thanks for all the responses guys - you've answered all of my current primary concerns. However, I encourage you guys to continue your discussions at the tail end of this thread as I'm somewhat new to this audio hobby and am learning all the time. I'm enjoying reading what you guys have to say.

As far as specific equipment I am considering Thorman, I'm not entirely sure if I plan to buy a preamp in the very, very near future and am in a more factfinding type of stage, so I will leave that for a more pertinent time.

The issue of greatest concern with regard to the small signal tubes is not replacement but noise.
I also want to warn you that tube "rolling" is a very addictive hobby that could end up with you begging money from relatives for more NOS tubes.
I don't know in truth about longevity, I have had no new tube failures with the exception of power tubes. Some of the tubes I have were used for 7-8 years and are still fine. Others I run for a few months and they have become irritatingly noisy and a real bummer. If you shell outbig bucks for a special old stock tube and find it useless after a few months you are Sh** out of luck.
I wouldn't forgo a tubed preamp for a SS in a line stage simply because I like tubes. However I don't think of any tube being perfectly noise free when amplified in a phonostage. The order of amplification is so great it is nearly impossible to maintain a truly silent tube phono stage. Others will argue, you will see.
In any event Tube power amps or integrateds produce a bigger, more obvious, holographic three D sound stage, than any SS gear at any price, that I have encountered. Since I go to audio shows and am a member of a large audio group I have heard top flight SS gear. It sounds great but nothing like a tube amp.
In the end I think my AE-3 tube pre is a miricle for 300 bucks.
I happen to own a legendary preamp, which is one of those you mention, an ARC. An SP6B specifically, which is a generally admired and sought after pre given that it is 25 years old.
I prefer my little 2 tube AE-3 which uses 6SN7s. I happen to really like them but I haven't the resources to buy a SLP-05 for 7-8 thousand.
My two cents in summary worry about your power amplification!
If you use power tubes you will hear the tube magic. Don't fall for the tube pre is all you need bit. It is not true period.
If you want to use an SS preamp you will still hear the magic. The other way round is widely believed to be the case, ingnore the insane, hopeless, clones.
A tube in a preamp or preamp section of an integrated accomplishes nothing without using power tubes.
Good luck and believe me or just find out yourself it took me only 6 years of experimenting with tube preamps to hear Nirvana when I finally bought tube power amps.