Most beneficial change .

I didn't audition PrimaLuna, but I had that feeling when I had CJ preamp. The sound had good extension, very smooth, excellent midrange, but it was boring and I could fall asleep while listening. I take it as different people looking for different qualities in component. Some people prefer laid back smooth sound, and others prefer live and dynamic sound. It's a matter of preference, not one is better than the other. VTL preamp that I'm currently using is at the opposite end of the spectrum, alive, dynamic, with toe tapping quality. You might consider switching your amplification.

B 4 I made any major move, and the sound you have now is good, I'd go back and re-examine the tube selection in the Int.

I've found a mix of tubes whose properties are dissimilar in the preamp section, and/or amp section makes a great diff in the involvment of the sound.

Perhaps in de-detailing or smoothing off the rough spots as you alluded too with previous tube rolling, you went a touch too far... or didn't get the combo of tubes just right, and settled.

ON my tube preamp I have smooth NOS RCA on the input (rectifier) side, and and dynamic NOS Amperex Bugle Boys on the output.... on my tube monos I keep the detailed dynamic thing going with NOS Tungsol input tubes, but go to Winged C EL34 on the output sides.

Try some Amperex whites, Tungsols, Sylvania, or some other snappy dynamic tubes in there somewhere but not in place of those which eased up the presentation and see what happens.

Then... look to amps or speakers.... it's easier and cheaper to do tubes first
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First off , I want to thank everyone that has taken the time to offer up their suggestions , please keep them coming .

It seems pretty even between new speakers , new amplification and more room treatments .

I have looked at Coincident Partial Eclipse speakers with the side firing woofers and the Quad 57 rebuilds . I don't want to try , again , to integrate a subwoofer though .

I have also looked at a Cary Cad 300 SE LX20 , Jadis DA's , VAC Renaissance and KR Audio VA-340 integrateds .

I have spoken to other members using my CDP and they don't suffer my problem . I have changed the IC's to au/au 24's with good results . My present room treatments are from Eighth Nerve placed as per their recommendation in the wall corners , wall ceiling junctures and wall ceiling corners . I don't know anything about bass traps though .
Any good primers on the use and placement of bass traps ?

I am no longer able to get out and audition equipment as I used to . I have heard my speakers with four different amplification setups . CJ PV-10 pre with a CJ SS amp containing a tubed buffer , bright and ipodish . Then with a Cayin A88-T , I bought this int. with the speakers . I also heard them with a Cary sli-80 which was very close to the Cayin . All of these auditions were done with the exact same setup , only the amplification was changed . I was unable to bias the Cayin and sold it in favor of the PL as it is self biasing , as are the others that I am looking at . By rolling the input tubes I was able to get the warmth of the Cayin while retaining the greater extension of the PL .

I am still using the stock KT-88 tubes that came with the PL2 . The input tubes were changed to Mullard CV4004 P for the 12AX7's and Radiotechnique vintage 1956's for the 12AU7 driver tubes , these all were per Upscale Audio's recommendation for a warmer sound .

I have dedicated 20A lines with isolated grounds , seperate circuits for analog and digital equipment .

Interesting that Sbank associates PRaT with the toe tapping . I always assumed it related to the tempo of the music reproduction . I have had a CDP that played the music at a different speed than what I was accustomed to hearing and that is what I was refering to as good PRaT . Maybe I am using the term incorrectly .

Blindjim ; can you elaborate on the tube rolling selection for dynamics please ?

Thank you .

Sounds like you are going to have to change everything in your whole life, lol!

I would start with your room (try to find a bigger/better/more rectangular one). My room is bigger than yours and I find that speakers that roll off below 65 Hz are acceptable. Otherwise the sound gets too slow and heavy as the room overloads with bass.

You mentioned that you prefer tubes but I think you might want to try an amp with a lower output impedance (maybe a Pass/First Watt pure class A) since the high output impedance of your existing amp will act like a tone control with your speakers.

Saki70

Sure... as best I can... you can pm me and we could talk ph to ph live too.

With respect to Upscale Audio's recs, BTW, did they sell these to you or tell you to go find them?

What I posted previously is how I go about things that I've found which have continued to work with various tube items. I am certain it ain't the only way either.

It pretty much keeps to my ideas on system building, but I never really put it into that context till now. Hyper resolving source (signal input), ease off the hard edges with smoother tubes there, then pick up that signal and exploit it downstream. Fatten it, emphasize it, exaggerate it, or maintain it's ease thereafter, DEPENDING on the needs of me... and the speakers/room.

I'm not all about which tubes replace which tubes as substitutes but know those who do. one lives in my area, two others do not.

In thinking about this and considering doign some tube tweaking of my own I've contacted my closest new tube source so I can point you in his direction if needs be.

I've found some tube makes have certain characteristics. RCA are IMO very nice, easy, tubes, like Matsushitas and the Green Amperex. The Amperex whites are far more bold. tungsols are akin to them. other's possess a more dynamic visage too. I don't knowe much at all about 88s. I'd think there might be some major strengths they carry, but some could well be marginally disimilar enough to solve the riddle. Beats me.

I did also run across a review in passing I wanted to investigate on the Gallo speakers. they have a new set forthcoming soon retialing for $6K or so... and read the 3.1 refs review in 6 Moons. John Podis did the account & you can Google for it. If tubes aren't the key, though I think that will surely help, there's them Gallos.

it was clearly stated how well they worked in smaller rooms and bettered most monitors using one ex of some $8K sorts for comparisons sake.