Power output of tube amps compared to solid states

Atmasphere, it's exactly here where we diverge. IME, speakers both objectively and subjectively vary more than other components, and have a more varied response in different rooms/setups. With that said, all the speakers I seem to prefer, work best with ss. It seems to me that speakers that work best with tubes, do so with that intention, and seem to suffer much greater compromises in order to do so. IMHO, those compromises swamp what ever advantages tubes might(?)offer. With that said, it would seem to me that the easiest path to a system that sounds like real music is to build a system around the constraints we have the least control of; budget/room, and the speakers which adapt to those variables more so than any other components, and to their more varied unique voices to which our own unique specific sensitivities must adapt to more so than with any other components. YMMV :-).

Mapman, Pubul57, it would seem to me that speakers with a benign phase angle and a higher impedance rating might be better served with tube amplification over ss amplification, that would loose power with an increasing impedance rating.

Here are some speakers that are not well driven by transistors: ESLs (too bright, no bass unless the speaker is only a foot or two from the wall), horns (usually very shrill, due to the reactive nature of the drivers), full-range high efficiency drivers (similar to horns), any box speaker wherein the designer was expecting a power response from the amplifier rather than a voltage response.

An example of the latter is the Wilson Watt/Puppy, which had a resonance in the tweeter. This was controlled by a trap filter set at the frequency of the resonance. This caused a 2 ohm impedance at that frequency (2KHz). Tube amps, encountering that impedance, do not make much power and everything is good. Transistors dump power into that load, resulting in brightness. This is why you see such conflicting opinion on that speaker.

for more info see:
http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html

So IME, since I prefer the reduced coloration of tubes, it makes sense to me to choose a speaker that works with that, rather than one that requires a transistor amp to sound right. IOW, that's why you choose the amplification first, then the speaker. Otherwise you can flush some big money down the loo.

Atmasphere,

Interesting.

Does Wilson then state that the Watt/Puppy was designed to work best with tube amps, or is that just the way it happened to turn out.

If not, then it sounds more like the Wilson design is flawed however a tube amp might be the right bandage.

Interesting conversations. The original conversations changed from the definition of power to sound quality of tube vs. solid state amps. There is an amazing bias here between the tube lovers and solid state lovers and music lovers. Personally, if the music doesn't sound real, then I couldn't care less if it is solid state or tube. Same logic applies if the sound drives me out of the room. As I mentioned previously, quality designed tube or solid state amps would reproduce the signal accurately and both sound wonderful. Speakers have various impedances and some are easlier to drive than others and that really affects whether the amps would work well or not. There are many various criteria for amp design. Imput impedance, gain, output impedance, current capacity, voltage, power output into specific loads, etc. All of these criteria can help determine if the design and construction and parts used should be of higher quality or not. Some times, more than not, you really do get what you pay for. All that said, I have listened to some wonderful tube equipment and also have listened to some equally wonderful solid state equipment. Nothing is perfect yet. it would be hard to design and build perfect. First, you have to assume that the music was recorded 100% correctly, using equally great recording equipment and that just simply is not the case. Maybe with Mark Levinson or Manley recording gear, but in most cases, the music isn't recorded perfectly from the beginning. Then send the signal from a source (album or cd or tape) to your preamp. Well, the cables have impedance don't forget and will slightly degrade the signal, unless corrected for. the pre-amp will degrade the signal. not one is perfect. The cables from the pre-amp to the amp degrade the signal. The amp will degrade and the speakers aren't perfect in reproducing signals either. See where I'm going? At this point in our scientific history, we aren't there yet. Electricity over wires and through tubes, resistors, inductors, capacitors, transformers, etc. will produce distortions and have losses. Can't get around it. Can a tube amp beat a solid state amp? absolutely, same can be said visa versa. How were they designed and built? Were they designed and built on the same price point? power output?, etc. if not, you are comparing apples to oranges.

I love good, accurately reproduced music and couln'd care less if it came from tubes or solid state. If it is right, then it is right.

enjoy