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RE: Better...Classe CA-2200 or Levinson 333-5-6?

For the last two years, I've had a used ML333 amp that had been paired with a pair of Apogee Duetta Signatures. With the loads that those speakers need, the ML333 was one of the few amps that wouldn't get fried in handling those speakers. Unfortunately, my cat decided about a month ago to sit on top of it and let loose with cat urine that fried the components to where the estimates to repair the unit start at $2,600 and could go to $4,000.

At first, I was committed to getting another ML333, or a 335 or 336 because I loved the ML so much.

After turning over numerous rocks in trying to find a replacement and coming up dry on those fronts, I'm leaning heavily toward making a massive change to my system. Knowing that my amp choices are significantly limited when paired with the Apogees, I came across a pair of Martin Logan Prodigys that I'm considering making my primary speakers in place of the Duetta Signatures. The Apogees had been part of a system that included a pair of Vandersteen 2Ces, and two Vandersteen 2Ws (one powered and one not). To power the sub, I had an Aragon 8002 to handle that job, along with sending the signal to the powered one as well. The 333 easily powered the Apogees and 2Ce's in tandem.

From what I've been told, if I went with the Prodigys, they are much easier to drive than Apogees, so my range of usable amps would be significantly larger. In place of my fried ML333, I've been told about the Classe CA-2200 could handle the job, with one offered that would come with the full 5-year warranty.

With the added bass that the Prodigys I think can handle, I'm thinking of trading in my unpowered 2W, along with the Duetta Signatures, and even possibly the Aragon amp.

I'm wondering how much of an upgrade people think I would be achieving, going from a system that had a ML333, Aragon 8002, Apogee Duetta Signatures, Vandersteen 2Ce's, and a pair of Vandersteen 2Ws to one with Martin Logan Prodigys, Vandersteen 2Ce's, a single powered Vandersteen 2W, all working off the Classe CA-2200. The investment for the purchased equipment will likely be in the area of $9K, and the return on what I would sell would likely be in the area of about $2,750, netting a total investment of slightly more than $6K. If I went with holding steady in getting another ML amp, I'll likely have to spend another $3.5K to $4K, so a difference of a couple of thousand between the two.

Any thoughts?
acaamano
no_money
638 posts
 
I have been wanting that same amp for some time now!

I would give it a shot with the Apogees.
acaamano OP
10 posts
 
Throwing a potential wrench in the equation...A 333 that I had only been considering only slightly, as the price was out of my range has been dropped to less than (about $600) what the Classe would be if I bought that amp. The 333 evidently had significant work done to it to update/upgrade it, so one could almost argue the 333 is almost sonically new.

While I'm not too afraid of road trips, I'd have to get in the car to drive 6 to 8 hours just to listen to the 333 to then decide on whether to buy it, versus where I've already had the CA-2200 on loan in my home the last two days in my system to get a sense of what it can do.

Should I still go with the new Classe, with the full 5-year warranty, over the 333?

Thoughts?
gundam91
506 posts
 
Acaamano,

So far, we've only heard one side of the story regarding the criminal act. I think the cat should have an opportunity to defend itself.

I owned the 333 for 8 years, bought it as a demo from a dealer. During my ownership, the capacitors blew up twice, and I found out from ML that it had already blewed up once when the dealer had it. This has been discussed quite a bit on various forums. Are you sure it was the cat?

The ML tech told me over the phone that this issue was due to two parts: a design issue and also the capacitor supplier. They had since switched to a different supplier after Harmon took over. Under the new practice, there is a price cap for repairing ML products. When I sent mine in 3 or 4 years ago, it was around $1200 for the amp. But they had a shady practice by telling you that it would not cost that much, but you had to authorize it to that amount for them to start the work. They would come back afterwards and tell you that you got lucky because the cost would have been $2500 without that policy and you were lucky to walk away with only paying $1200 + shipping both ways. They did the same thing to me around the same time on my transport and charged me $1800 + shipping both ways when all I needed was a quick recalibration (per their published internal document that someone sent me afterwards, all I needed was to push a few buttons on the front panel).

I'm not sure who provided you the original quote. But if you are keen on keeping the ML 333, it might be worth calling Harmon and inquire about the cost. But maybe they've changed their policies. Per some owners ML had extended the warranty policy for an extra few years after this issue went public on discussion boards. So you might want to check to see if it is still under warranty. The amp DOES sound better with the new caps though.

And there are NO upgrades. Whoever told you that is B.S.ing. When I sent mine in, I asked whether it would be possible to upgrade it to the 333.5. But the tech told me they no longer provided the parts to do so. So the person is probably trying to cover up the fact that the caps blew up and went back to the factory for repairs. And no independent tech would touch this amp. I had asked several highly recommended repair shops across the country.

So that's another con for the ML333. If you buy another one, you never know when the caps will blow up and cost you more money to fix.

It might be a stretch financially, but I would also recommend the Pass X350.5. I ended up trading my ML333 in for one and never looked back. It can handle lower impedance well. I've heard some great successes from owners using it to drive various Apogee behemeths.

I read Davt's post above with great interest, because not long after I switched the amp, I also switched speakers to the Verity Parsifal Encore with the latest version of the tweeters. Previously I had owned the Thiel 3.6 for like 10 years, and before that Thiel 2.2 for about the same amount of time. I've not heard the X250.5 myself. But I have read equal amount of opinions from (supposedly) people that have compared the X250.5 and the X350.5 that one is better than the other.

FrankC
davt's avatar
davt
505 posts
 
I have not heard the 350.5 but with the parsifals I don't think it would make much difference to me. I don't listen to music load, don't require vise like base control and really enjoy the sweetness of music in the mid range. Now if I could I would love to hear the XA60.5 or even the stereo XA30.5. I think one of the things I like about the Classe is the Class A bias. It is not pure class A like the XA but at my volume levels and with my music I probably have never run my amp out of class A bias. (I have gotten it pretty hot though). I also like the neutrality of the Classe and the Pass did that better than the others I tried.
acaamano OP
10 posts
 
To Gundam91:

While I know my cat has had a fancy or two to try to walk across my computer keyboard, she's yet to master the skill of typing.

From what I was told by both my salesperson and the tech guy who talked to him, the cat urine is what did the unit in. And the time from when the cat had sat on the unit to the time (and I saw her and shooed her off) and the amp coughing up black smoke was barely a few minutes.

Understanding the costs associated with getting Levinson gear fixed, and the times associated with that, I've come to the sad conclusion that I could have invested $2,600 to $4,000 to fix the 333, only for some other issue, even non-cat related to require another hefty bill to be paid.

That's why in part I've come very close to a sad acceptance that the next main amp in my system will not be a Levinson.

It troubles me to hear about the recalibration of the unit that ended up costing you $1,800. But from the horror stories I've read in many places at how Levinson service has degraded to, I'm in some ways not surprised.

I'm confident that had I had the work done by Levinson and had it sent to them, I'd be looking at a number closer to $4,000, as it's the whole board (at a cost of at least $1,600) and not "just" capacitors that needed replacing.

I'd have my doubts about the unit being under warranty, at its age, especially with from what I've been told was the cause, that's certainly not covered.

The tech that would have repaired it works in conjunction with a store that had been a Levinson dealer, but with so many issues, has dropped the brand, but will continue to try to service the brand in some fashion that's better than the aggravations that exist when sending it directly to Levinson.

And while I was leaning strongly toward getting another 333, I've come to the conclusion as you so rightly say, "If you buy another one, you never know when the caps will blow up and cost you more money to fix."

In my having tested the Classe CA-2200, and done some research on the brand, the horror stories that have so colored my view of Levinson don't seem to be the case with Classe.

While your suggestion of the Pass X350.5 sounds like a good amp, I was having trouble with the idea of spending $9K on two pieces (the Classe AND a set of Prodigys I was thinking would replace my Apogees), when the Pass by itself runs that cost.

When I get that next bonus check, I might consider such an option, but for right now, spending slightly more than $4K on the CA-2200 will be enough of a punch to the chest, er, wallet.
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