solid state vs tubes

"I wish people would come out sometimes and say, "It sucks"."

I agree with you Bostonbean, but it's more easily said than done. I have friends and acquaintances that would receive criticism of their wife and kids more kindly than they would their audio systems. I think it's absolutely crazy, but I've seen one friendship cool substantially after the suggestion of a subwoofer; and I've seen another friendship actually end after a guy, who just couldn't take it anymore, asked the host if he could watch television.

Wow! this thread will go on for ever because it is a subjective discussion/argument. Lets take away the tube and solid state fan boys that won't ever accept that the other can be as good or better. Some people are in a particular corner because that is what they believe period. People vote republican or democrate many times, not because the candidate is better than the other, but because they refuse to vote any other way. same is true for tube vs solid state arguments most times. Good Engineering is good engineering. If it is designed and constructed correctly, it will reproduce the electronic signal as it was designed to. Remember those words. as it was designed to. Does the engineer seek to reproduce the signal as accurately as possible or do they seek a particular sound? Many times it is the sound, not signal accuracy, and people develop a personal taste for what they like and totally throw out accuracy. I have compared top of the line tube equipment (apples to apples) with top of the line solid state and as with any piece of equipment designed by different people, there will be differences in sound output. But, I can say as an engineer and as a music lover that they both (excellent top of the line tube and solid state) sound wonderful and I would take either. As I have written many times, take your favorite well recorded music, sit in a room, listen to your music on a tubed amplifier, then remove that one and plug in a solid state amplifier and listen again. compare apples to apples. A $5000 tube amp with a $5000 solid state amp (just make sure they are in similar price and quality range). Designers have compromise points based on the budget and price range of products. That is why price, and quality ranges are so important in comparisons. You can't reasonably take a Audio Research REF 610 amp and compare it with a Yamaha $700 amp and think they would be even close. Don't play with cables or any other item. Just amp to amp and see (listen). It will come down to your personal preference. Don't allow your thinking to be biased by other's ideas or preferences. Listen for yourself. You will find that a good engineer/designer can do tube and solid state equally well. Do you honestly think that Nelson Pass can't design and build a top of the line tube amp? Same with Tube designers doing solid state. Listen to the music. Love the music. Does it sound real? If not, why? First is probably that it was recorded badly. Which is the case most times. Just a bad recording and certain equipment is very forgiving and will not reveal the inaccuracies. Or they are designed for a particular sound. Other equipment will reproduce the signal as it was recorded and will reveal terrible sound. But, it may not be the equipment, but the recording. There are many things going on, not just one thing. Talk to knowledgable friends, listen to equipment and music and have fun. Borrow equipment from people and stores and listen.

minod, you present some lucid arguments but you neglect to discusss the central concern of this thread, nameley the posssibility that in a given stereo system, a tube and solid state amp produce a "sound", which makes it almost impossible to detect the difference between them ?

I think Nelson Pass chose SS because he felt there were already alot of really good sounding tube amps, the trick was to get SS to sound good and he wanted to take on the challenge - don't know whether his stuff sounds tubelike or not, though he often describes the ways in which his circuits are similar to tubes in their simplicity compared with other SS designs. Mrtennis, I have no idea if there will ever be a time when you can detect the difference between SS and tubes, too subjective (yours) to know, but it does seem that there are at least some audiophiles that would be hard pressed to detect the difference and know which was which.