Amp more important than speakers?

From my previous post on this particular forum. In my many many years at this, I have not experienced someone wanting to buy an amp, and then say, ok now, let me find speakers to match it. As a sales person and consultant during many of those years, I always directed customers to speakers first, based on characteristics they were looking for, and, the room they will be in. At that point, help them with an amp to drive them properly, for spl, impedence, tone, etc. During the upgrade process, this can be reversed. This happened to me when I transitioned to my 104 db speakers and found a smaller amp than what I was using. The larger amp did not have the detail, musicallity or even the "prat" that the smaller amp had. But again, it shows, for me anyway, speakers first. However, this in no way suggests that the amp is less important. I remember meeting Ivor T from Linn many many years ago, as he started with the source and worked his way from there. This too is a great approach, and in some ways made sense. My Linn LP12 set up through a japanese receiver and bookshelf speakers sounded more "real" than a cheap turntable through more expensive electronics and higher end loudspeakers. Ultimately, it is all a means to an end, just how to get there.

In my experience a moderately decent speaker can benefit from almost endless upgrades upstream. It surprises me how far you can go. A poor front end can only be exposed by great speakers. As long as the speakers are at an acceptable level and suit the room, spend heavily on the amp.

It's all important!!!

Picking the speaker first is not a good idea. Many people think it is, but then find out later that they are thus married to a certain kind of electronics to make that speaker work.

The fact of the matter is you have to do research. For example, if you prefer tubes, you can't just buy a speaker that you fell in love with and make it work if the speaker is incompatible with tubes. You'll be flushing money down the loo chasing *that* conundrum.

Amps and speakers have to be compatible. For example, I know someone that is a big fan the B&W 802. But that speaker is not designed to work with tubes, and this guy really likes tubes. He has bought amplifier after amplifier trying to make the 802s work. But the simple fact is that that speaker is designed to work with transistors- the amplifier has to be capable of constant voltage in order to play bass right. Now most tube amps don't make constant voltage and even though they are often much better than transistors in playing bass, in this case it simply won't work.

Another example: Sound Labs. Dick Olsher recently give them Best Sound at Show. If you fall in love with them, and you otherwise like to play transistor amps you will be having a very frustrating time- with transistors the speaker appears very power hungry and its hard to make them play bass and not sound really bright. It has to do with the impedance curve of the speaker- most 600 watt transistor amps will not make over 150 watts on that speaker.

The *match* between the amp and speaker is what you seek.

Wow! what a debate. It is great reading this and noticing the opinions of so many knowledgable people. Usually with my friends, they already have an audio system. Typically mid fi equipment and they want better sound quality. Where to begin. With an existing system, to me it totally depends on which component I could tell really is hurting the system most. with most, they don't have a ton of money to buy everything at once. So, one component at a time. They plan on upgrading everything eventually, but they must plan and save. So, sometimes items for sale come up that you really can't pass up. You may walk into a store and the salesperson may have used equipment or new and give you a price you simply can't walk away from for a really nice piece of equipment. Say for example, you have Yamaha or Sony mid fi system. Walk into a store and in the corner is a used Mark Levinson 23 or 23.5 and the owner wants $1000 for it. (I know, this would rarely happen, but...) I would imediately recommend that my friend grab this amp if it works. Or a really decent Audio Research amp or Martin Logan Request speakers. The point is, you never know what will fall into your lap or when. So, keep your eyes open and good friends near and grab what you can when it comes up. If your "buddy" told you to get speakers first and the amps or pre-amp comes up and you pass on it because you believed that you absolutely had to get the speakers first, then you missed a golden opportunity.

Ordinarily, I would tell my friend to get decent speakers first if they already had a mid fi system and then upgrade the electonics accordingly afterwards. One piece at a time. But, as I mentioned previously, sometimes, you can't look a gift horse in the mouth. Grab it if it presents itself to you. But first, establish a sound quality you want and a resulting price point and stay within that price point. There is always something better out there and most Audiogoner's will acknowledge that there is better equipment out there than what they have. There are better cars, houses, audio equipment, etc. You have to know your limits on price and what resulting sound quality you would like.

I ask my friends those three questions. 1) what audio quality do you really want? 2) Do you sit and listen to music or do you use it as background music? and 3) what is your budget? Then, knowing that most of my friends don't have an unlimited budget, I recommend that they upgrade one component at a time. Speakers first, better source component second (cd player or transport and dac), then pre-amp next and amp. Then we play with cables along the way. The next thing I recommend is that they buy very good used equipment instead of new. Because they can purchase very good to outstanding used equipment for the same price as newer but lesser equipment typically.

good discussion and debate.

enjoy