2. amps-preamps
  3. 1355905155

how much of a difference should equipment make?

I spent the last few months looking for a good sounding 2 channel setup and this is what I ended up with:

McIntosh C50 Preamp
McIntosh MC275 Amp (VI)
SF Cremona M
Audioquest King Cobra XLR
Audioquest Carbon USB
Audioquest Rockefeller SW

Let me just get this out of the way and say it up front.. While the speakers (and their placement in my room) seemed to make a huge difference, the amp, preamp, and cables do not seem to make any discernable difference to me or my wife.

I feel like I have purchased the C50/MC275 due to a combination of the integrated DAC, aesthetics, heritage, level of support, and resale value.

We compared several options at home and in high end audio shops.. For example, in one store, I got to listen to the Cremona M's through a pair of MC1.2kw+C2300+AyreQB9 and then immediately following that, the C50 paired with a single MC275. I really wanted to hear a difference, but nothing. In the same store, I was also able to listen to a Music Fidelity M6 and luxman 550AX connected to the same speakers.

I brought home a demo of a luxman 550AX integrated and an MA6600 McIntosh integrated and did several days of A/B testing with the Cremona M's and we could not detect a difference at all. I tried to make sure that decibel levels were matched by playing a test tone and using an SPL meter.

I am using Jriver with ASIO with a variety of music off of hdtracks.. the music is being sent to the DAC in the C50 via audioquest carbon USB cable in bit perfect asynchronous mode.

I checked the MC275 manual and McIntosh recommends 12AWG wire. When I had a pair of audioquest type 4 connected (which was only 16 AWG), we did detect a small improvement when moving to the 12 gauge Rockeller wires. I did not test any cheaper speaker wire. This was the only time that I heard something other than the speakers make an audible difference.

I was also able to compare a peachtree iDAC and Ayre DAC at my home and I did not detect much (if any) difference between the DAC built in to the C50. I do have the latest firmware.

I heard huge differences when cross shopping speakers and doing A/B tests in stores.. for example, B&W 802D seemed to have much more 'oomph' on the low end, but lacked some midrange and high vocal clarity. It felt a bit like voices were not 'tight' compared to the Sonus Faber line. I listened to a pair of SF Elipsa and they sounded similar to the Cremona M but a bit more 'full'. As if the depth of the sound stage increased and also the bass had a bit more impact.

Although I do not hear any difference in preamp/amp/cabling, it does not mean that a difference does not exist. I am not trying to insult anyone here.. it may just be that the combinations of equipment that I have tried are still somehow 'lacking'.

My questions are as follows....:

1) Is it normal to not hear much (or any??) difference when changing out preamps or amps assuming the components in question are within similar specs?

2) Has anyone else purchased relatively expensive amp/preamp combinations even when you believe the components are not making a difference in the sound quality?

3) Placement and angle of my speakers in my room make almost as much of a difference as the brand and model of the speaker - at least to me. Anyone else have this experience?

4) What am I doing wrong that is leading to not hearing a difference?

I do not believe my ears are at fault.. My wife and friends were with me throughout most of my testing and they came to the same conclusions.

In any event, my setup at home sounds great to me and rivals (again, to my ear) most everything I have heard in audio stores.

Thanks,
ecsrun
rlwainwright
1,904 posts
 
>> Let me just get this out of the way and say it up front.. While the speakers (and their placement in my room) seemed to make a huge difference, the amp, preamp, and cables do not seem to make any discernable difference to me or my wife. <<

We have a winner!! Differences between speakers are *huge* compared to that found in good-quality, well-constructed equipment and cabling. You are much better served by improving the following:

1) Speakers
2) Speaker/room interface
3) Source materials

Improving these 3 items will result in significant improvements. All the rest is mucking about the fringes.

You have a nice setup and seem to have discovered the basic truths on your own - good on ya! For now, I would simply sit back and enjoy that system...

-RW-
onhwy61's avatar
onhwy61
5,229 posts
 
To piggyback something Elizabeth stated, audiophiles exaggerate very subtle differences and use hyperbole to describe these really small differences.

The idea that you need to develop your listening skills is silly. It is not so much listening, but more of being able to describe what you hear in words. Is being able to talk like an audiophile a social skill you want to develop?
brf
1,715 posts
 
Onhwy61, are you telling us that you cannot develop your senses? My neighbor who suffered blindness 6 years ago will beg to differ as he has developed his sense of hearing that today just amazes me.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,304 posts
 
Ability to discern differences via hearing can be developed and refined over time. FOcus and desire is needed. Most "audiophiles" tend towards this. But there is no rule that says one must or should if they are getting by fine as is. GEtting by fine means the sound quality serves the purpose of enjoying the music. IF you are enjoying what you hear sound quality-wise, then you are fine. If not, then some additional refinement might be desirable as discussed but it will likley take some time and dedication. It may or may not be worth it. That is what matters. It can be a difficult endeavor to master! So many variables beyond the gear like recording quality, room acoustics, expectations (hopefully realistic, unrealistic expectations can be a curse), etc.
sebrof's avatar
sebrof
835 posts
 
I agree also with most of what has already been posted.

Years ago when I was just starting out in this hobby I listened to two CD players in the shop. The salesman kept mentioning differences in the music I couldn't hear.
I brought both of them home and thought the more expensive one sounded better...maybe. So I had my wife swap players (input select on my preamp) and I would try to guess which was playing. The first several times I got it right but felt like I was almost guessing. Then it hit me clearly, I could tell the differences immediately. In fact, where in the beginning I needed 15 - 30 seconds before I guessed, at the end I just walked in the room and knew for certain even before I sat down.

I believe that once you get very used to the sound of your system you'll hear differences in the components, but probably never as much as speakers.
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