Tube amplifiers and interstage transformers


Hi,

I have seen that a lot of very expensive tube amplifiers use interstage transformers to handle impedance between stages. There are other two methods to handle impedance between stages: capacitor coupling and RC. I would like to know if somebody with more knowledge can explain the difference in the sound of these 3 styles.

Somehow, it looks like some of the most expensive SET amplifiers have interstage transformers like Audio Note or Shindo.

I also read about the highly regarded amity and karna amplifiers that D Olsen built and they have also interstage transformers.

So, what are the benefits of using interstage transformers?

Thanks

Alan
128x128alanbrain
I've not found that transformers contribute to transparency. IME they always detract from it. Bandwidth aside that has been the main reason I avoid them if possible.

Distortion is however a main reason people will often prefer transformers, as these days of inter-stage transformer use it is mostly in single-ended circuits. The type of distortion I am referring to is the lower ordered harmonics, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

We have built a number of OTL guitar amps, and one of the problems we ran into was the fact that the amp was transparent and not a lot of distortion. This is great for a high end audio amp but bad for guitar. So we built an OTL that used a single-ended driver circuit and an inter-stage transformer to go from single-ended to push-pull. This got us a lot more 2nd ordered harmonics, which made the amp sound richer.

Sunn used this technique in their early transistor guitar amps, which have a reputation amongst guitar players as one of the few transistor amps you can use with electric guitar, due to the richer sound of their single-ended circuits (which were also mostly zero feedback).

When you are using a transformer for audio purposes, loading of the transformer is a big deal. If not loaded at all, the transformer will merely express the inter-winding capacitances rather than the turns ratio. This will result in poor bandwidth and distortion. As you load the transformer more and more, approaching a value known as 'critical damping' that bandwidth will widen and the distortion will drop. Because there is not a lot of power involved, the bandwidth of the transformer can be quite decent, easily exceeding 100KHz, so the real issue is how well it plays bass.

In SET circuits this is usually not much of a problem because once you get above about 7 watts or so you aren't going to see much low frequency bandwidth out of the amplifier anyway. Plus, to take advantage of the SET's ability to have unmeasurable distortion (in a lot of SETs distortion decreases linearly to unmeasurable as power is decreased towards zero) you need a really efficient speaker (103 db or more) and you are not going to get much bass out of most of those speakers either.

In order to get a condition of no phase shift in the audio passband (20-20KHz), the amplifier must have bandwidth from 2Hz to 200KHz, IOW 1/10th to 10X of the frequencies to be amplified. There are very few tube amps with bandwidth to 2Hz, and not many speakers that go to 20Hz, so this bass thing is where most of the fudging occurs in tube amplifier design, which is exacerbated when interstage transformers are employed.

Phase shift in the bass region translates to a loss of impact to a frequency up to 10X the frequency of the cutoff. So if the amp rolls off at 15Hz its a problem up to about 150Hz or so. This is the other main objection I have, as the speakers I play at home go to 20Hz. I played bass in the orchestra for a long time and as a consequence I have found that I am hard to please in this regard, hence I stay away from transformers in general.
Alan,
This is why I hope you`re able to hear the components that use an IT and listen for yourself.I appreciate explanations from the design/engineering perspective but nothing beats actually hearing the end result.Andy Grove an Audio Note engineer has written very compelling arguements for the advantages of interstage transformers. Both sides make good cases. Listening is the best solution.
Regards,
Thanks a Atmasphere for his technical explanation of his experiences with transformers in amplifier design.

And yes Charles1dad, I will have to listen for myself and compare.

I have listened to some amplifiers that have ITs and I liked their sound. Mostly, I listened to them not in a proper listening session but in a demo room.

Best way to get out of doubt will be to get me one and live with it for sometime.
Alan,
That`s good to know and the right direction to take.Based on theory,measurements and the viewpoint of designers of solid state components,tubes should`nt even be a consideration for best sound aspirations.They`re too colored,too much distortion,outdated and measure poorly. Heaven forbid those comptemplating the SET amplifiers(worse of the tube lot).Funny thing is with all this logic, SET are to people like me the most realistic and natural of any type of topology I`ve heard.The very best sounding system I heard in Las Vegas a few weeks ago(CES and T.H.E. SHOW) was the Absolare-Rockport at the Flamingo Hotel.

The Absolare Passion was a PSET with 845 tubes(and an interstage transformer!), it was just stunning good and utterly realistic and sublime. Other 'exceptional' systems in comparison came off as only very good "Hifi". You just have to listen and trust your ears and spontaneous reactions.I`m sure no way, no how this amplifier has bandwidth or measurements that would compete with many other amps I heard(it`s SET, how could it?). I believe what matters most for excellent sound are qualities we don`t/can`t measure.Alan, you say your SET sounds amazing, I believe you.

Regards,
Based on theory,measurements and the viewpoint of designers of solid state components,tubes should`nt even be a consideration for best sound aspirations.They`re too colored,too much distortion,outdated and measure poorly. Heaven forbid those comptemplating the SET amplifiers(worse of the tube lot).

Charles1dad, I can't agree with that statement, unless you exclude the 'theory,measurements' part of the first sentence.

The human ear is more sensitive to odd-ordered harmonics than just about anything else, as it uses them to determine the volume or loudness of a sound. This is why transistor amps sound bright even though the odd ordered distortion coming out of them is very low. Its just that the odd ordered harmonic distortion coming out of a tube amp is usually a lot lower, which is why they sound smoother.

SETs in particular have an additional quality which is that all forms of distortion they make decreases to unmeasurable at lower power levels (our amps do that too FWIW), something that transistors don't do (below a certain power level, distortion rises with them) and also something that most push-pull tube amps don't do (the traditional thinking being that this is caused by the phase splitter circuit).

IOW, the **theory** says that an SET (or other amplifier with similar abilities) should sound better to the ear. It is unfortunate that so much weight is given to specs on paper that don't mean anything to the human ear, which is the final arbiter. It is possible to create and measure specs that *do* mean something to the ear (IOW have a direct correlation to what we hear) but the industry has zero motivation to do anything like that. So for now, SETs will have to 'measure poorly' as you put it :)