Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Dear Mapman: Agree that are many other persons that are thinking and experienced audio subjects " out of the box ", I never said I'm the " only ": not.

My posts about are not exactly to convince any one, it's clear that when people are sticky to " something " only them can be unglued.
What moves me about is to make some conscience that not all what we have what we experienced what we learned and what we belive and are sticky with is right, there are several subjects that are wrong and alternatives " unknowed " for us that helps to improve to rectify what is wrong in favor to be nearest to the recording.

Unfortunatelly in some of those alternatives we have to turn around not only our believes but many times our be-loved electronics or audio items " we like it " and unfortunatelly too we are not prepared yet to do it we don't have the correct attitude to do it.

I know that we have to change in some ways if we have to grow up and the first change must be in each one unbiased attitude because with out it we can't really change.

Why is that?, well many of us are accustom/ears-equalized to those: mid range lush colored sound, smooth highs, non-accurate organic bass and the like.

What could happen when instead of all that kind of sounds that you are accustom to start to hear accurate, neutral, non colored, low distortions performances through your system?

what you will hear is something different from what you are accustom something different for the better where the music you will enjoy and that comes full of " emotions " now will sound not only nearest to the recording but nearest to the live music as never before.

Accurate, neutral, non-colored, low distortions does not means in any way_ cold, analitical, no-emotions and the like: NO, what means is that we can have all what the music it self can make through our senses but with accuracy.

Live music has its own agresiveness and normally has not that " smoothness " you are accustom to or that lushness you " die for ".
As Lharasim posted we have to understand first how live music performs. Try to make an experiment: bring to your place some one that can play a horn/trumpet for you and hear it seated 3 m. from him, listen and try to find that lush or smootness you normally like. You can try wit other instrument and then you will understand all what is wrong in what today we are listening through our audio system.

Many of us think that music " belongs " to the mid range well in a home audio system my take is that music belongs to bass range, as better the system bass management as better the music experience.

It's in this frequency range where IMHO we have to start to inprove. A clear, accurate, neutral bass range puts the right frame for the music where in the other frequency ranges you will hear that transparency/dynamic/power and information that you are unaware right now. Having the right system bass management means lower IMD/THD in your system and you can hear it and when you experienced this for the first time you will be speechless.
As with this action there are many others but IMHO this is the first step.

Yes, I know that many of us think that we already has that right bass management well ask you if can improve it and work there before you buy more cartridges, TTs or tonearms. For we can enjoy at top level all our new audio toys we have to improve that bass management system ( as other things around. ): the cartridge signal is processed through the system.

To achieve that " right " bass management ( with passive system speakers. ) we need to have two self powered subwoofers working in true stereo fashion:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

Secon step could be to match system electronic impedances in the same manner that with a cartridge we look to match it with the right load impedance. That means to match phonolinepreamp output impedance with the amp input impedance and the output amp impedance with the speaker electrical impedance curve. In this last case we need that the output impedance on the amp be/stay very low: 0.05 ohms is desired.

You can follow questioning me but is useless, what can help you could be to try and test/experience those two steps along attend as many times you can to hear live music.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul,

Your passion for this subject is in no doubt: you also appear to be able/willing to spend much more time than many of us to develop your ideas and observations.

One day, when you're able, I would like you to provide a summary of your researches - but simply and concisely! Perhaps in bullet-form? I don't know if others would agree, but leaving out the ad hominems and intemperate language would also be very welcome; I think we all know how devoted to this topic you are!

I only ask because, like you, I have a thirst for knowledge, as I'm sure many of us do. I find many of your comments to be challenging, some extremely so. It seems from many of your posts that your position is consistently anti-establishment, and this usually makes for good reading.

At the very least it would be fascinating to hear your manifesto....

"Dear Mapman: Agree that are many other persons that are thinking and experienced audio subjects " out of the box ", I never said I'm the " only ": not."

No, but when you talk about AHEE in such broad general terms, it gives the impression that it is an all inclusive club and categorically evil and misinformed.

I would loose the word AHEE all together if I were you and be more specific in who/what is being addressed case by case instead. That avoids grouping those who are educated with good intentions in with those who might be otherwise. Its a good practice and also better from a PR perspective.

Now if in fact you have 100% revolutionary ideas that toally flies in the face of everything anyone already knows about this stuff, then by all means have at and take on the world, but do you really, Raul? Really?

Impressions matter with people, sometimes even more than facts.

So no one liked my magic coils story? Hmm. A lot of talk going nowhere here. Let me say this: there are hobbyists and there are the real pros and innovators. The ultimate are those who have not just designed and built amplifiers and speakers but have gotten to the level of detail of winding their own transformers for amplifiers, speakers, microphones, phono cartridges, or motors even. Restoration is a labor of love and requires great skill and knowledge- don't get me wrong. I had a buddy in the 80s that was very talented at restoring amplifiers and preamps. He looked for old tube amps to restore that were known to have good quality, good sounding transformers. Maybe that's were I get my coils kick; but even he didn't try to wind transformers himself. Anyway, I want to weigh in here too. I agree that it's easy to grow accustomed to colorations in our sound systems. I get to hear acoustic presentations at our nearby University and they almost sound as good as my stereo. :) I like Blues music but I don't like the overpowering, way overdone bass at live presentations. I definitely do not want to duplicate that at home. I like live orchestra but my system at home cannot duplicate a music hall. So I have to live with that; but I still enjoy classical music at home.
I pretty much put my soldering iron away in the mid-90s and moved away from modifying to acquiring more "high end" equipment. I think I had to spend a lot of money to get beyond the sound of my modified gear. Part of me wants to believe that more $$=more better sound, but my experience over the years has proven otherwise. I'm brainwashed by the great marketing machine like everyone else. If I had the means, I would spend well into the 6 digits on my stereo to both satisfy my ego and get to the ultimate audio experience. As it is, I have learned to do more with what I have to maximize the audio experience. I think most of us as music lovers and hobbyists try to do that. I miss the stereo salons of the 70s-90s. So few around these days. It was always fun to hear the latest gear and walk away smirking at the bogus claims of some salesmen.

Tonywinsc,

you are describing pretty well how you developed through "your audio career". I guess there are some others among us -maybe not writing posts at all, only reading - who couldn't stand anymore the experimentation process when changing gear or adjusting the system. Some of them gave up or went into smaller audio settings or just decided to be fine on a certain level. But there is a number of audio afficiniados still searching for the holy grail.

It might be also related to the age, the period how long you are working on your system, the abiliy coping with frustration, defeats and new beginnings. I don't think people with real ambition gathering here are walking in a shop, fair or platform buying samples of the most expensive stuff and relax for the rest of their life in front of their system. Those guys enjoy some other hobbies much more and come back to their music system very rarely.

The real HighEnder believes it is helpful building up knowledge, exchanging with friends and discussing on Audiogon e.g. The real Extremist High Ender has strong beliefs what kind of listening approach is adequate and will lead to listening enjoyment. It is not about listening at loud or low level - sometimes a very funny labelling of groups happens usually pointing at the "loud listeners" as the deaf or unknowledgable guys - no, it is more about natural sound, in my universum it comes with a profound bass related (!) to the music, drive but also a kind of airiness. I also prefer a good resolution (not necessarily High Resolution at all times) rather than only mid level frequencies.

I am not sure if someone not having really listened to one's system is able to draw conclusions like "that must sound distorted or not". But we all usually do this when looking at images of other friends' systems. For me the biggest jump forward in developing my listening mode came when I was exchanging ideas and views in situ - which means with experienced guys in my listening room. Of yourse you need to bring along a kind of learning readiness doing so. If you claim you are the biggest boy of all and your system is the greatest achievment on earth you will not suceed with my approach and experiences in the last years.

Nevertheless you may come to the point in one's audio career where not much is going forward anymore. Either you need to implement a complete change like "from transistors to tubes or vice versa" or "from less efficient speakers to very efficient horn speaker systems or vice versa" or from "MM to MC or vice versa" etc. or you are concentrating on room improvements or so called voodo accessories. The field is very wide for spending energy and money, especially in the analogue arena.

Some among us have finally reached at Nirvana or some similar Happiness, being absolutely satisfied with all their successful efforts. Is this the basis or motivation for moving out to the world showing and talking about their joy. Maybe yes! Are they right I don't know? Does it help others - maybe yes or no. Some among us are warning their comrades about the bad influences of the industry, reviewers and some other temporary fashions in the audio world. On top of that some believe in completely different audio philosophies as e.g.Raul seems to do right now.
Is this helpful, yes and no. Yes because we should never believe having reached some level keeps us in a position not listening to critical arguments. No because philosophies of denial and intolerance to others' different approaches (sometimes with personal implications) esablishe no solid bases for a positive audio adventure.

Tonywinsc - the times may have changed. Instead going to dealers looking around at new gear or installations (I know how it was :-) we are visiting audio friends learning from their experiences. It is sometimes a more complex and time consuming activity especially when you are visiting cross-border. I for myself will be in Paris next week listening to a completely newbuild Western Electric 12a installation. Is it for me? I don't know and I do not care about, I certainly will enjoy and learn.