Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Mosin,
I agree with you on the usage of the term neutral. This seems to be to most often abused expression in High End. People were educated going for a neutral (= no influences of any part of the TT in comparison to the original recording) reproduction. The term itself is a contradiction. But in man's history everyone was looking for the stone of wisdom and some church bishops developed rules and everyone followed. Followers have an easy job just repeating this formula all the time giving themselves a kind of wisdom.
Of course we know that the world is colorful and that even the quality of master tape recordings depends on the engineer's carefully designed set up as well as the capabilities of the musicians and the room. Whoever has visited different recording studios knows that the term neutral is complete bullshit. I understand that people are always on the road asking for traffic signs, guide lines and reglementation - also on audio.

Nevertheless one may argue if we cannot set up a standard in recording we need to agree on a standard in reproduction and this one we may call neutral.Following this reaching the highest standard in reproduction is a 1:1 copy delivered by the turntable. All small deviations caused by the drive, tonearm, cartridge etc. are not allowed. What you need to do is owning the master tape or at least a 1st copy tape and compare it with the turntable's result. I sometimes do it with my Reel to Reels just to get an idea of the turntables signature which all have!

Doing this I have found out that neutrality is a nice theoretical formula. People hunting for this might believe they are on the right track but the reality shows a different picture. Usually the ones being happy with the sound at home are those who know about the signature of their reproducing machines and do like this. It seems to me that more often unhappy people are going on the neverending quest for something neutral - my god there must be a unit providing this and who is not seeking a neutral reproduction cannot be a musical expert at all

Raul,

"I know that you know exactly what I'm refering when I speak of neutrality on TTs."

I did not understand, and I did not mean to offend. It is just that I find the term to be misleading for the reasons that Thuchan explained so eloquently in the post above this one, assuming the word "bullshit" fits into ones definition of eloquent. Being the forward thinker that I am, I'll accept it. LOL

Yes it is Tbg...

Halcro, I got in touch with Tommy. He still likes the Victor but says parts just cannot be found. I think I will probably just stick with my Nantais Lenco. Thanks for the information, however.

Dear Rauliruegas, Thuchan's thread started with a question about a quality that can't be measured and his emotional reaction to the EMT 927, so yes its all subjective. You bring up a few different points and I want to break it up and answer you to the best of my ability.

1- What we have here with the 927, American Sound and others isn't something that you can capture, put in a bottle and sell, it goes way beyond measurements. This is a musical interment designed and fabricated by someone who was an artist and an engineer. What is it makes a Stradivari or a Guarneri so special. If you see theses instruments up close, there's nothing special looking about them. They're dull and utilitarian yet they have a magic that no one's been able to explain, measure or reproduce. You can hear it and you'll feel inside you, its there and its real but how do you qualify or measure it if not subjectively? This is exactly what you have with a 927. The EMT 930 is a fantastic turntable and a near exact smaller copy of the 927 but it doesn't share that special quality that we're trying to define with words here. This isn't BS or illusionary its there and its beyond the norm.

2- Measurements are important but in this and they play a part for sure but they can't explain things. A HT subwoofer might measure down to 16hz or lower but is it the same 16hz that you get from a great pipe organ? They'll measure the same but subjectively different!

You mention the SP10MK3, wonderful table, very good sound specially with the heavy obsidian. It measures great too but at the end of the day it lacked that special something that makes the others great. Mosin briefly discussed EMT's motor and I'm sure that its part of the overall recipe as is SP10's motor. That speed stability of 0.0001% you is achieved by its motor, which is part of why I don't care much for the SP10. They achieved that fantastic figure with a servo controlled motor, what that means is that the speed of the platter is continuously monitored and adjusted. This constant tweaking creates certain sonic artifacts that don't occur with an inertia driven system and a non-servo motor, where the platter spins continuously and seamlessly. Granted the SP10 was one of the best of its kind with less noticeable artifacts than the ordinary servo controlled motors but they're still there. So this fantastic measurement which on the one hand tells a story of greatness also creates some of the major shortcomings of the table. My point here is that the measurements serve a purpose but at the end of the day my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me.

3- "Engeneering must be reflected on accuracy characteristics against what is in the market, especially when we are saying that the 927 is the " holly grail ". Maybe you can put some " light " about."

The quality engineering is all there and that's only part of the story. The character at work here is extremely rare you can't just quantify it and measure it when there no comps. The best I can do is to invite you for a listen.

4- "Natural from your point of view and your examples posted is more a subjective parameter that means it's not neutral but only diferent with different colorations/distortions."

No, I never said anything about colorations and distortions, Natural means just that. Its a sense of realism portrayed these tables. As a matter of fact its exactly the opposite. There's no overriding tonal character here, every recording and performance sounds distinctly different. The only constant is reality. Real person, real instrument, real performance. I don't hear additions or omissions of character but that's always subjective too. We have no way of knowing what is in those grooves, only what I hear sounds and FEELS real and its different from disc to disc.

5-" I never had the opportunity to heard the 170 kg. American Sound TT that's a different kind of design including its drive mechanism but I heard the Final Paruthenomn( 140 kg. ) that was an assualt to the state of the art on TT."

The Parthenon was an assault but didn't get all the way there, too many gimmicks. Its not only mass here, The American Sound Table is a minimalist design, a purists dream. There's nothing extra here, every element serves a purpose. Its brutally simple and I think that's why i think it sounds the way it does.