Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Dear Rauliruegas, Thuchan's thread started with a question about a quality that can't be measured and his emotional reaction to the EMT 927, so yes its all subjective. You bring up a few different points and I want to break it up and answer you to the best of my ability.

1- What we have here with the 927, American Sound and others isn't something that you can capture, put in a bottle and sell, it goes way beyond measurements. This is a musical interment designed and fabricated by someone who was an artist and an engineer. What is it makes a Stradivari or a Guarneri so special. If you see theses instruments up close, there's nothing special looking about them. They're dull and utilitarian yet they have a magic that no one's been able to explain, measure or reproduce. You can hear it and you'll feel inside you, its there and its real but how do you qualify or measure it if not subjectively? This is exactly what you have with a 927. The EMT 930 is a fantastic turntable and a near exact smaller copy of the 927 but it doesn't share that special quality that we're trying to define with words here. This isn't BS or illusionary its there and its beyond the norm.

2- Measurements are important but in this and they play a part for sure but they can't explain things. A HT subwoofer might measure down to 16hz or lower but is it the same 16hz that you get from a great pipe organ? They'll measure the same but subjectively different!

You mention the SP10MK3, wonderful table, very good sound specially with the heavy obsidian. It measures great too but at the end of the day it lacked that special something that makes the others great. Mosin briefly discussed EMT's motor and I'm sure that its part of the overall recipe as is SP10's motor. That speed stability of 0.0001% you is achieved by its motor, which is part of why I don't care much for the SP10. They achieved that fantastic figure with a servo controlled motor, what that means is that the speed of the platter is continuously monitored and adjusted. This constant tweaking creates certain sonic artifacts that don't occur with an inertia driven system and a non-servo motor, where the platter spins continuously and seamlessly. Granted the SP10 was one of the best of its kind with less noticeable artifacts than the ordinary servo controlled motors but they're still there. So this fantastic measurement which on the one hand tells a story of greatness also creates some of the major shortcomings of the table. My point here is that the measurements serve a purpose but at the end of the day my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me.

3- "Engeneering must be reflected on accuracy characteristics against what is in the market, especially when we are saying that the 927 is the " holly grail ". Maybe you can put some " light " about."

The quality engineering is all there and that's only part of the story. The character at work here is extremely rare you can't just quantify it and measure it when there no comps. The best I can do is to invite you for a listen.

4- "Natural from your point of view and your examples posted is more a subjective parameter that means it's not neutral but only diferent with different colorations/distortions."

No, I never said anything about colorations and distortions, Natural means just that. Its a sense of realism portrayed these tables. As a matter of fact its exactly the opposite. There's no overriding tonal character here, every recording and performance sounds distinctly different. The only constant is reality. Real person, real instrument, real performance. I don't hear additions or omissions of character but that's always subjective too. We have no way of knowing what is in those grooves, only what I hear sounds and FEELS real and its different from disc to disc.

5-" I never had the opportunity to heard the 170 kg. American Sound TT that's a different kind of design including its drive mechanism but I heard the Final Paruthenomn( 140 kg. ) that was an assualt to the state of the art on TT."

The Parthenon was an assault but didn't get all the way there, too many gimmicks. Its not only mass here, The American Sound Table is a minimalist design, a purists dream. There's nothing extra here, every element serves a purpose. Its brutally simple and I think that's why i think it sounds the way it does.

Dear Mosin: What could be main targets for you or people like you when are going to design an audio item?

for me that that audio item " does not add or lost nothing to the recorded signal ". That we can achieve it or not is another matter but the important subject is the target.

The R"R comparison sugested here IMHO does not works because what's in the LP grooves is way different from what is in the tape if for no other thing because the eq. RIAA. We have to remember the additional steps where the signal must pass before we can have on hand a LP.

All in " nature " have its own natural coloration. We can't mimic the real thing in a two channel home audio system, so at least try that at each single link in the audio system chain all those link can approach ( nearest ) that neutrality.

I care about in my system. Approaching 100% of accuracy and lowering every kind of distortions through all those system links we can be nearest to the LP grooves.

Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing.

I always say that the main difference between audio system is it's distortion levels ( everything the same ) and accuracy.

What are we touting here with the 927?, only subjective words not a single fact as the ones I asked to Dkarmeli. If we are saying that the 927 is the holy grail: where are those facts that could prove with out doubt is in reality the hoily grail? some people here say that the motor is something as the star? well where are the facts that can prove it against say the motor in the Rockpot Sirius 3 that has a signal to noise over 100db!!!

Subjective tests are always important but we need to have those measures on the item performance to know if what we are hearing is a real inprovement or only a full of distortions performance.

Now, if you have different targets than accuracy and neutrality then everything is different.

MS designers never had those targets and even in the SX-8000 they offered in those times two different kind of TT platters with different colorations. If a designer is looking for some kind of colorations ( named distortions. ) then he are away from neutrality/accuracy. Any one has the privilege to design or buy what he wants.

Things are that I like the accuracy/neutrality approach.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul,

You asked, "Dear Mosin: What could be main targets for you or people like you when are going to design an audio item?"

Dksrmeli made three points that are key, in my opinion.

"They achieved that fantastic figure with a servo controlled motor, what that means is that the speed of the platter is continuously monitored and adjusted. This constant tweaking creates certain sonic artifacts that don't occur with an inertia driven system and a non-servo motor, where the platter spins continuously and seamlessly."

" There's nothing extra here, every element serves a purpose."

So, I would suggest:

1) Do not interrupt the flow of the music by altering the speed in some artificial way.
2) Use inertia to best make the music happen in a natural way.
3) Don't add useless elements that get in the way of the music.

Of course, there are nuances to everything, but if the designer misses one of those three principles when designing a turntable, he is screwing up, in my honest opinion.

Dear Dkarmeli: Thank's for your wide answer explanation.

++++ " it goes way beyond measurements " ++++++

agree, with today measurements we can't explain for sure all what we percieve or discern on almost any audio item but those measurements is a reference especially when we are talking on this kind of top quality performance level.

Of course that what is important is how deep an audio item " moves " you how well wake up our emotions/feelings but from this point of view, that as you said we can't measure, MUSIC it self has a mains characteristics that's to moves you even if you are hearing trhough a Walkman.

I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs.

++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++

When we make that statement IMHO that means: " end of history ".
There is no single argument to that " I like it ". It lost any proposal because any one of us are unique and what you like it could not like to other persons and the other way around too.

Facts/measurements does not cares on what we like it but in what's wrong or good and that today measurements can't explain what we heard in precise way does not means that that can't do it it's only to know what to measure and where to measure. Even those the TT typical measurements are good reference.

What if the 927 S/N is a mundane 75db or the w/F only 0.1%? what could told us these measurements?, plain and simple: that what we like are colorations/distortions away to be natural and higher that what we can hear trough other TTs.

At the end the whole subject is really complex and only testings in the same audio system the 927 against other 6-7 top TTs we could have a " true light " about and only if that subjective testing were made it by non-biased persons avoiding that: " I like it ".

About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks " .

Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ).

Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject.

Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?. It can't hurt if we know about.

Don't you think?

Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul said,

"Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?. It can't hurt if we know about."

True, but the rub is in what is measured, and how it is measured. Let's use speed control as an example. I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive due to the inherent tracking error of an idler wheel. I know that sounds impressive, but what does it tell us? The answer is not much, really. Why not? That is because such a measurement is an average.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. Let's assume that a given record has twelve transients of the same character on one side; say a cymbal crash followed by a low organ note. And, let's say that the turntable slows down 2% when it enters the transient, and speeds up 2% when it leaves the transient going into the low note, but only for a millisecond. Now, you have a smear in the music, and no matter how small it might be, the turntable is performing less than than optimum. So much for one the part per million measurement even if that is the average accuracy, right?

So, how could the measurement be beneficial? It is useful only for comparison with lesser turntables. However, if you calculate the inertia of the platter, then it would be useful without making some comparison that may, or may not, be a fair one. The reason that an inertia measurement along with a speed measurement would be useful is because then one could predict what might happen when transients are encountered. Nonetheless, it wouldn't necessarily tell anyone how the turntables sounds when compared to another one. Ears are best for that.

That crazy scenario is one example, but there are so many variables to almost every aspect of a turntable that developing a standardized system of meaningful specifications is virtually impossible. I would welcome such an endeavor, though.