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Rudy Van Gelder: Genius or just lucky?

Like any serious jazz fan, I have a lot of music produced by the "legendary" Rudy Van Gelder in that studio in Hackensack NJ during the fifties and sixties. I've always thought they were kind of thin sounding and sometimes even tinny, with poor bass and flat dynamics. As I go deeper into the era I keep finding recordings – both live and from other studios - that really blow away a lot of the RVG studio stuff. For example, yesterday I was listening to Monk's 'Live at the Blackhawk' , which is a great natural recording with the instruments sounding both lifelike and life-size, with good bass. It was recorded in 1960 live in a club, and sounds - to my ears - 100% better than the contemporary studio recordings (Monk's Music, Brilliant Corners, etc). The live recording also doesn't have any of the studio baffling that was so fashionable on early stereo recordings, that makes instruments sound isolated from each other rather than part of a unified soundstage (And RVG is certainly not the only engineer guilty of this. Has anyone really ever heard a drum kit where every piece was stacked vertically?). Although this is a Riverside release it was not engineered by RVG. It seems that there was some very good recording technology at the time that was not being utilized in RVG's studio, or the acoustics were funny - I don't know.

This isn't, of course, limited to Monk recordings. That just happens to be the example I was listening to yesterday. I find this to be the case with most RVG dates.

You can't ignore the importance of the RVG records simply because of who and what he recorded, and he recorded the best, but I've seen a lot of articles offering accolades for his productions that just seem overblown. I think a lot of those records- great music or not - sound really mediocre.

Any other opinions out there?
grimace
r_f_sayles's avatar
r_f_sayles
872 posts
 
I'm with Khaki8 on the point that the original vinyl is representative of fine musical reproduction and engineering.

It's shoddy repressing or digitization that has degraded the sound quality IMHO. Go back to the original mono vinyl and give credit were it is do, I think you’ll see what I mean.

I'll keep mine and please contact me on anyone looking to rid themselves of those old, dusty, nasty, (low)-Fi Rudy Van Gelder Blue Note Jazz Mono vinyls from 1953 to 1967 in EX+ shape. I will pay you fairly for them so you can go on your way and buy more CD's and wildly priced cables and equipment to try and make music sound better than this. Ha, ha, ha. Especially, anyone with a copy Of “See you at the Fair” by Ben Webster on Mono Impulse… in fact, write me about the Impulse pressings too!

Happy Listening!
grimace OP
624 posts
 
Great responses folks. Khaki, I'm not suggesting that the music isn't great. To my mind it's the most amazing catalogue of 20th century recording there is. However, what's available sure doesn't sound like they put a lot of effort into making it sound it's best, especially if - as stated above - the original vinyl pressings are that much better in sound quality. But I suppose there is a certain amount of milking the catalogue for $$$ going on.

Funny thing: I was listening to another album recorded live at the Blackhawk last night, Shelly Manne and His Men Vol. 1, which was recorded within a year or so of the aforementioned Monk album. The imaging was a little different with the kit across the center and everyone else off to the sides, but it has the same big, warm, smooth detailed sound. I wonder - and if anyone knows I'd be interested to hear - if the Blackhawk had its own house recording system and what was in it?
opalchip
355 posts
 
You really have to judge an RVG recording or mastering by the original vinyl, not by CD reissues of 50 year old master tapes.

IMO - what distinguishes much of RVG's work is not an "audiophile" wow factor, and by no means a sonic accuracy - but rather a palpable sense of "you are there" presence and a good slice of the emotional atmosphere in the recording room. And lets not forget that the Engineer and Producer are also responsible for creating an environment that allows the musicians to feel comfortable and creative, bringing out their best, which was no small part of capturing small ensemble jazz.

Like anyone, some of his stuff is better than others, but in general, there is a quality to it that is not necessarily unique, but very enjoyable.

Most people are not aware that RVG also worked on a number of the very early VOX and Musical Heritage Society/Amphion Classical chamber recordings, which also have that same sense of presence. Often he's not even credited, the only way to know is to look at the dead wax for an "RVG" stamp.

One example of this - which is well worth looking out for is MHS510 - Handel Select Harmony, Telemann Society Orchestra. In the first 10 seconds after dropping the needle, you know this is a special recording. Not that easy to find but should cost you less than $5, since it is after all, an MHS.
According to Google, there is currently one for sale here: http://www.sonicrec.com/sonicrec.asp?stockno=%20326245

unsound
7,341 posts
 
Great Thread. I too believe RVG is over rated as a recording engineer. Piano's rarely sound complete and as big an instrument as it really is, soloist don't seem to stand up to the forefront, dynamics are restricted and worst of all the bass is bloated and never seems tight. Hey, it's not terrible and the music is outstanding and I'm grateful the work was done, but, the rep is over-hyped.
phasecorrect's avatar
phasecorrect
2,013 posts
 
i have the 24 bit Art Blakey "Moanin" remaster on cd and Im pretty happy with it...its not state of the art...but it sounds way better than it should...and great music to boot..
I also have some xrcds of Miles that sound extremely good as well...
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