Any smooth jazz fans out there?

Since everything from the Mahavishnu Orchestra to the Rippingtons gets called "fusion" the term really has no descriptive value. At least w/ "smooth jazz" you can generally expect some really derivative melted velveeta and miracle whip sax tones and some phoned in time signatures. Still quite a few generic dime a dozen records don't neatly fit into a smooth jazz box... tons of great players like Dave Liebman, George Duke, Jan Garbarek and David Murray have made some sappy predictable records that aim for a piece of the lowest common denominator... somehow these guys and many others haven't often been branded as smooth jazzers. When the stuff starts getting called smooth there's often a Pat Boone covers Little Richard syndrome going on. So far on the thread I don't think anyone has said "Joe must like to eat cat turds and his mom must be his sister because he likes "smooth jazz". The personal attacks seem to be primarily coming from thin skinned posters who aren't as well informed as they perceive themselves to be. If someone wants to say Ken Vandermark just makes random noise and I say Bob Mintzer, (who might be one of the nicest people you'd ever meet) does not have a unique voice as a player and has not advanced the vocabulary of his instrument or any area of music one iota.... at least we're talking about music and not exchanging personal insults. Truth be known, there are probably hundreds of records that we both like a lot. If you still wanna call names though... knock yourself out, it's not going to bother me, (four letter words are way more accurate than completely off the mark words that end in -ist).

I can see that further discussion about the need for a certain amount of respect and decorum are probably pointless. Too bad. But I stand by my comments re the inappropriateness, on this forum, of calling someone else's musical taste crap. I don't consider the OP's reaction to having his musical tastes called crap, to mean he is thin skinned; at all.

Duanegoosen, if any musician that "does not have a unique voice as a player and has not advanced the vocabulary of his instrument or any area of music one iota..." can thus be called crap, which is what you are suggesting, we have just defined music elitism; which was my point. I hope we can agree that there are many great players that while not necessarily advancing the vocabulary of their instruments, still produce terrific, valid work. I am sincerely very curious as to what you think David Murray has contributed to the vocabulary of the tenor saxophone (I won't even touch his bass clarinet playing), that in absolute terms, someone like Bob Mintzer has not. BTW, while I admit (and never suggested otherwise) that Mintzer is not one of the great innovators on the tenor saxophone, his arranging style has a very distinct voice. I am also, honestly, VERY curious about what recorded work there is by Liebman "that is sappy and predictable, and aim(s) for a piece of the lowest common denominator..." I am not aware of anything that does not have musical integrity. But I don't claim to have heard everything he has done. Since you are so well informed, I would appreciate the info.

Meaningless little squabbles aside, what is undeniable and far more meanigful, is the power of music to create such strong opinions in listeners. Our chosen musical favorites become a very personal matter, and cause us all to sometimes lose a certain amount of objectivity. IMO, when we become so invested in the pursuit of an ideal (based on our personal standards), to the extent that we lose the ability to be sensitive to others' viewpoints (however less sophisticated we may think that viewpoint is), we lose the ability to appreciate everything that Music's very essence has to offer. And our "more informed" viewpoint actually becomes a liability, not an asset.

Getting back to the question about smooth jazz, about 20-25 years ago I really got into it the GRP label in particular with artists like Dave Grusin, Lee Ritenhour, Kevin Eubanks. I also have several albums by David Sanborne and Spyro Gyro both of whom I listen to occasionally. Eventually I found most of the music wanting, I couldn't connect to the factors that makes you want to come back for more. While I can certainly appreciate the technical abilities of all the above not to mention the merits of most of the recordings I never emotionally connected to the music. Maybe time for a revisit?

Thanks to all the posters who added to my quite limited knowledge of this genre, I'll be sure to check out some of the above I'm not familiar with.

I guess I need to revisit my twenty or so David Murray albums to examine his connection to "smooth jazz." A grand slam of '80s Black Saint full of originals & Ellington, Strayhorn, Coltrane, Alyer, etc., accompanied by the likes of Joe Chambers, Henry Threadgill, James Blood Ulmer, Don Pullen, Billy Higgins, Ed Blackwell, Lester Bowie, McCoy Tyner. Not to mention the early '90s with Shakill's Warrior, Fast Life, Black & Black, Special Quartet. Yes one loses interest later on, but in terms of productivity, diversity(with sidebars into theater and dance), longevity,and the company he kept, Murray's place in the canon is secure. You could make a stronger case for Chet Baker than for David Murray in connection to smooth jazz.

Hey Frogman,
Hope the weekend is good.
- Like most people I like tons of stuff that is the musical equivalent of junk food, and I never said Pdn's musical taste was crap.

-The previous post did not suggest that one needs to be an innovator to be a great player (or is crap because he or she is not breaking new ground)...if there's an elitist epithet being hurled here it doesn't stick. It's pretty obvious that good and great music can come from almost anywhere.

-Did not claim that David Murray, who rarely plays below his abilities (as he does on maybe Dark Star or Fo Deux Revue) has gone into unmapped territory ... he has worked further away from the mainstream than Mintzer on several Black Saint, Soul Note and Hat releases, (this is not a knock on either player).

-On most post 70's discs w/ Liebman it's rare to go 5 minutes without finding some sax playing that would fit right in on a Kenny G record... if you want some of his weakest discs try Energy of Change, Light'n Up Please, Daydream w/ Terumasa Hino and Plays the Music of Alec Wilder w/ Vic Juris. Liebman (and Juris) both have put out a pile of recordings that still seem fresh and deliver a real sense of discovery, (the Liebman Lookout Farm records are great and I wish ECM would would reissue them).

-Also did not claim to be well informed in any post, basically was just noting that posters who jumped on other members assumed they knew more about fellow Audiogoners than they actually did.

-Gotta agree, opinions about music are hugely subjective. It's great to have a light bulb go on that gets you into something you previously didn't like. At its core some of the best jazz or improvised music will grab, twist and combine just about anything for a buzz, a lot of times there's nothing purist or sophisticated about it. Very long story short... I usually prefer chunky jazz to smooth jazz.