stupid question about sources, amps, and loudness

All --

Thanks for the many helpful comments.

Specifics are as follows: speakers are Wilson Benesch Curves; pre-amp is Nagra PL-L. Sources are EAR Acute CD player (yes very high 5V output) but also Northstar DAC (2 volt ouput).

Here's the experience:

with the Northstar into the Nagra, volume on the Nagra was at 8-10 o'clock. Over 10 too loud. When I changed the jumpers on the Nagra to -20db, the volume needed to be at 3-6 o'clock (7 is maximum). But the sound was noticeably less clear -- sort of compressed sounding.

with the EAR into the Nagra, the EAR's volume is set at 12 o'clock, and the Nagra then has a nice range of volume control (10 o'clock to 2 o'clock). Seems good. BUT...

The very best sound of the system, despite the fact that the Nagra is an absolutely wonderful pre-amp, is to connect the EAR directly to the amps. Surprisingly much better: more details, greater warmth, greatly improved soundstage.

In this set-up, the EAR's volume control is between 8 and 11.

Sebrof -- the problem is that fine volume control is difficult with such a small range, and as I understand it with volume controls, using them at the extreme range is not good in terms of sonics.

I don't know the steps in volume control for the EAR CDP. But my question is when the EAR is running into the PLL preamp, why don't you have the EAR's volume/output set to fixed (is this not possible with the EAR?)?

I have heard very good things about the EAR Acute and have owned the Northstar DAC (good, but not better than the EAR from what I have heard). Doesn't the EAR have digital inputs?

Are you running balanced or SE? Maybe try a pair of Attenuators (either RCA or Balanced) running at negative 10dbA. I think this may help give you what you are seeking.

Finally, the EAR Acute is supposed to be pretty warm. Unless you are looking for a lot of warmth I would definately try it with a tube amp before buying one.

Yeah the EAR has no fixed volume option. Yes it does sound warm, which I like, and while the Northstar is good, the EAR is substantially better. Agree that tube amps may be too much of a good thing. Also agree that maybe I have less of a problem than I originally thought. Will probably try some attenuators since it is an easy and relatively low cost experiment.

thanks all!

I missed the part about the jumpers on the pre-amp. That's a thoughtful feature. Dgaylin, are you sure about the sound degradation? Make sure you are matching levels when you compare before and after.

Generally, almost all audio systems have TOO MUCH Voltage gain, resulting in various combinations of not enough volume-control range, more electronic noise out of the speakers*, etc. The most-common culprit is too much gain in poweramps and secondly too much gain in linestages.

Nelson Pass recognizes this and makes one of his FirstWatt amps with NO Voltage gain--yes, it's just a 'preamp-output buffer', converting the preamp's Voltage to the same Voltage but lots higher current to drive speaker systems.

Dgaylin, your goal of more than 100 tubed Watts for your 86dB-(in)sensitive speakers seems reasonable to me, but I doubt if you'll find an amp with little-enough gain (such as maybe 10dB). Using the 4-Ohm taps will indeed lower Voltage gain AND increase speaker-damping factor compared with using the 8-Ohm taps. The easy thing to do is try the in-line RCA/RCA attentuators.

I just bought Monarchy SE-160 poweramps that use a 12AT7 for frontend gain and a class-A-biased output stage that uses MOSFETS. With the designer's approval, I'm now using 12AU7s, and the amps have c. 9dB less gain. About 10dB still-less gain will be about right, and I'll have to get that by changing something within the amp or adding a resistive dividing network at the amp's frontend.

IF you fall in love with a tubed amp that has too much gain, a technician can fairly easily add a gain contol at its frontend.

* which is more likely to occur with relatively hi-sensitivity speakers