Which is more accurate: digital or vinyl?

RE***And yes, I still say that if you really cannot hear the HUGE differences between the live and the recorded in your own above example, or you truly think they are negligible and unimportant, then I truly pity you, as you are clearly missing a very great deal of what the musicians are trying to communicate to you. ***

You shouldn't pity me, you should say, wow, he must have a well put together system!

Also, i'm not intimidated by your credentials as to why you think you can hear better than me. And i'm quite confident you THINK can hear BETTER than me... OR ...that you can LISTEN better than i can. Hogwash.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist(or a professional musician(i've heard this a thousand times)) to know what a unamplified....harmonica, acoustic guitar, trumpet, trombone or violin sound like...played alone in a quiet room. It's immediately self apparent when you are.

The argument goes...i'm a professional musician, i'm a recording engineer, i go to live concerts twice a week THEREFORE because you don't have the same degree of exposure you can't know what real instruments sound like, therefore your experience must be rejected. Hogwash.

The sound of the above name instruments heard alone/live in a quiet room is easily discernible and their attributes/characteristics are self evident.

For the last 6 years i have been vigorously LISTENING and comparing systems, both my own and other audiophiles systems[this in itself has been a kind of training], previous to that i have lived in this world for many more decades and have heard and have played instruments all my life so if you would be so kind, please do not tell me i don't know how to listen or that your ear is better than mine cause you're a pro!

While i attest that the differences between the live event of the nirvana unplugged concert and the norah jones track i mentioned in a previous post and my stereo playback are negligible i also now attest, that for past 5 years i have ALMOST never or extremely rarely have heard a system sound like the actual event. Therefore, i DO have the ear/discernment to reject stereo reproduction that does not mimic or encapsulate the actual event.

If i didn't, how could i say all those years and to almost all the systems i have heard, own included..."this sounds fake"..."this parameter is wrong or that parameter is wrong?"

And...i can attest to the fact that 95 percent of my home playback does not mimic reality, nor have 99 percent of the systems i have heard. One other system i did hear it mimic reality on a couple tracks too. It was the tape of the 'star wars' theme.

I am a timbre and dynamics 'freak'. That is, timbre...(an instruments inherent signature pertaining to ...what the materials utilized in its construction and how those materials vibrate/sound as they push air when played)are my highest audiophile value with dynamics as it's close handmaiden.

So, if the timbres during my stereo playback or anybodies stereo's playback are off, to my mind, the music...in this respect loses its ability to fool you into thinking you are listening to a live instrument.

Also, you can go and hear and be exposed to many system's which you think are the best that is possible but still take away the experience that it did not imitate the live event, regardless of whether the system was ultra extreme expensive.

Dollars spent ...doesn't always translate to..."this is the best possible".

There are alot of expensive systems that have something amiss but tired audiophiles don't know where to go from there or don't know how to pinpoint the problem, except to throw more money at the problem.

What i'm trying to say is...while it is possible these great systems you have been exposed to had limited synergy between the components so that there was some parameter that could not fool you into thinking this sounds like live instruments therefore you believe it impossible that it can be so. I really want to labour this point since, i have been sorely disappointed by hifi dealers rooms and other audiophiles systems, over and over and over. I'm pretty picky and fussy and i keep it to myself but some of these hifi dealers rooms sound poor.

Secondly,

RE***I truly pity you, as you are clearly missing a very great deal of what the musicians are trying to communicate to you. ***

No, i'm not.

I'm getting alot of what they are trying to communicate with my system, ESPECIALLY on the specific musical pieces i've named already several times ....because my system can mimic the fabric that makes music music.

RE***I truly pity you, as you are clearly missing a very great deal of what the musicians are trying to communicate to you. ***

Do you know what i'd get out of seeing patti smith live unplugged? Do you know what i'd get hearing patti smith on my stereo? Will i 'get' the deep emotion she is trying to communicate because i hear her voice live and her guitar live?

No i wont, cause i'm not interested in patti smith. So, i don't get much emotion from patti recorded OR live. Which is to say...that music is MORE than whether or not you hear timbres reproduced accurately or not. I guess what i'm saying is that there are other things, other than just dynamics and correct timbres that evoke a emotional response in music.

for example...the words, the arrangements, how loud, or how soft something is played, how fast or slow, how a person uses their voice, how it all sounds when its happening together...other things too i'm sure.

I love music and timbres produced by a stereo that mimicks reality on SOME DAYS is just a luxury, not a necessity.

ON SOME DAYS...i'm just as content listening to my favorite music on my 12 dollar getto blaster that plays, radio, tape and cd all in one unit!!! as much as i would on my 40,000 dollar system because music is more than just timbre and dynamic response.

Emotions can be evoked by a memory we attach to a song, by the words, all kinds of things. Timbre is not the single channel alone to emotional connection. As i said patti smith 'LIVE!'even with the genuine clash of a real cymbal is just ho hum for me i won't get what she is trying to convey SIMPLY BECAUSE it is live.

So, if someone thinks 100 percent accurate timbre and dynamics is a necessary prerequisite to connecting emotionally and that 55.2 percent correct timbre is insufficient to convey musical emotion then i would have to disagree with them. There is so much more going on between a piece of music and the listener irregardless of whether not it is faithfully reproduced.

Many times the HIGHEST percentage of emotional connection is made APART from either dynamics or correct timbres and can be attributed to some other parameter. Other things are going in the human psyche that while listening to music we are unaware of.

Anyways...I have a good ear, i know what real instruments sound like, i am just as good a listener out there as anyone, i am picky about timbres, i have not heard correct reproduced timbres for years and was able to discern that they were in fact 'off' and all i can share is my experience ,whether people want to believe them or not, When my system has warmed for at least an hour and a half , with certain well recorded tracks and certain recorded sparse live musical events recorded on dvd, watching and listening to those and distinguishing those from actual live events (from a sonic perspective only)becomes extremely difficult.

RE***I still say that if you really cannot hear the HUGE differences between the live and the recorded in your own above example....****

Learsfool, I have to say...if you still hear a HUGE difference between well recorded music and your stereo, you should take a second look at your system.

Kind regards,

.

Vertigo - I think most people reading this thread will understand that you have misrepresented my comments. It seemed to me that you were clearly implying that I and everyone else disagreeing with you don't know what we are talking about, that our ears must be inferior, and that we haven't ever heard a really good system, and I was merely responding to that by informing you of my experience. My irritation at your attitude certainly was obvious in my post, but that was all it was. I know I am not the best writer, especially late at night when I am tired and irritated, but I assure you I would never resort to the type of argument you are now trying to attribute to me, which I definitely agree is hogwash, and I meant nothing of the sort. I think my main point was and is obvious enough, and needs no further elaboration.

If I am mistaken in your attitude, and my irritation is misplaced, I do apologize. I leave you the field, since further discussion seems pointless, and I sincerely wish you joy with your listening.

I agree if there is a huge difference between live and home listening in general, and it is something taht bothers you, there is probably something that can be done to close the gap.

I had that problem up until about two years ago. Since then it has become a non issue. The solution: keep tweaking until you get it right......

My first listening experiences were as a two year old listening to the 78 rpm vinyl that my parents played on a console tv set in the early 1950's.

Years later when I stsrted to learn how to play, i used the same system ,but the records were 45's and 33 lps.

Maybe it was because the amplification was tubes and the sound of vinyl that left a lasting impression on me to this day.Maybe just nostalgia,but I was very happy with that system, but it was the only one I had experience with.

Yes I can appreciate the music for the music's sake on any cheap system.A goodsong is a good song, you enjoy it.

But the big difference, the time when you have an epiphany, is when you hear that good music played back on a system that just does it better.

This was my experience, and after hearing new stuff on a favourite lp that I never heard before, I set out in this hobby.

The main purpose was to get all the music I was paying for.
In other words I wanted 100% of the musical content from the lp,not the 35% I was mostly getting with inferior gear.

Skip ahead several decades and finding some other fellows in this hobby and discovering different tastes in music, different system configurations and upping my knowledge of music reproducing systems.And changing my preferces in music and the gear that reproduced it.
It was great that I had knowledgeable friends in audio who were will to spend the time demonstrating what to hear and what to listen for so that I too could make buying decisions that would move me forwards and not back or sideways.Some dealers actually cared that you spent your money on something that was better just not different.
Some were quite opinionated and aliented a few customers,but like one audio dealer friend said, he wasn't into the hobby just to move boxes.If he was he would have sold more than just 2 channel audio.
And this was back in the mid 90's, well before the fashion of today.
I learned a lot about this hobby from my weekly visits to his salon.He was also an expert at getting great sound at audio shows and was a system set up expert.

One particular audio friend has a cost no object system,I could drop names, but let's leave it that just the cost of the Scarlatti digital set up is an idication of what lies thereafter.In all fairness I should mention the turntable is SME 30/12, SME5, Clearaudio goldfinger cart.We both prefer the vinyl rig, but which is more accurate?Who cares, both are amazing.

Now this is a system that only a few of the top audio salons can assemble.

This was the system that led me to what sonic improvements to already great components can be made when you start to address the power going to your electronics.

Great sounding gear was made to sound even better when power issues were addressed.
Power issues that some folks with mid level gear feel aren't necessary because their gear is perfect and doesn't need anything but a stock power cord into the wall.

But as much as the electronics disappear and leave just the music behind in this system,it still doesn't fool me into making statements like the "musicians were in the room with me".But it is fantastic at retrieving in both formats what is recorded in the black or silver discs.

And I've heard a lot of other very good music reproducing system of all stripes that also are great at reproducing the music but that can't duplicate the actual live experience.

Again I stress that most decent system can reproduce but not duplicate a live musical event,and you don't need golden ears, you don't have to be a mucician, or concert goer to tell the differences.

And you don't need to be any of the above to appreciate a decent hifi set up either.Even newbies can distinguish good sound from bad.
It is then left to you to decide whether it is worth the investment to move from where you are to the next level.

You may be quite content with earbuds and MP3, some of us are not, but no one can say any of us have the ultimate system giving us the ultimate pleasure of recreating the live event.

We can assemble hifi systems that are the eqivalent of the best High Def televisions of the day, or we can still be enjoying last centuries cathode tube tvs.

We will both laugh at the same jokes,still get the gist of what's going on, but the latest tv's will allow us to view the entertainment with more detail retrieval than ever before.

People seem to embrace the extra detail when presented in a visual manner, and yet some reject the extra detail when it comes to sonics.

I read a lot about folks who are put off when the details get in the way of music, making it sterile, fatiguing etc,and prefer more rolled off forgiving romantic types of sounds.

Yet I'll bet they wouldn't trade in their HD tv's and go back to what their parents owned in the 60s.

The newer tvs, and electronic of today have progressed,I would say everything is more accurate, more detailed,than what came before.

So why the backlash? If you are looking for accuracy it's out there in today's gear.If you want nostalgia and romance it can be found new and used.

But I will bet the farm that just as impossible as it is for the best of todays tv technology to duplicate what you see on the screen and bring it to life in your living room, neither can or will a hifi system duplicate and bring the musicians in full scale into your living room.

And yet we can be entertained with things just as they are.

Acuracy in anything can only be gauged against two things, one that is superior to what we have experienced and one that is inferior to what we have knowledge of.

In other words, based on our personal experience,we only know what's worse or better than what we have knowledge of.

Until you hear a system that does everything better than your own system you will think that what you have assembled is pretty accurate and leave it as it is.

When you do hear a superior system, if you can't buy the goods, then find ways to make what you have sound better than it did and narrow the gap, and as the fellow said"keep tweaking till you get it right"