Which is more accurate: digital or vinyl?

Phaelon, as you may be aware, many modern composers in fact believe that all noise, even silence, is music. John Cage being the primary exponent of the theory. Nice post, by the way.

“...even silence, is music."

Hey! That’s what my neighbors used to say :-)

RE***The intense lighting in a hospital operating room will be more revealing than the light emanating from a fireplace, but I will always prefer to gaze at, even the most flawlessly beautiful woman, by firelight. It’s not less truthful, it’s just another aspect of the truth.***

I like that.

Did anyone get the point i was trying to make with the "moving goal post analogy" and the "inherent futility of seeking... quote unquote... "hi fidelity" across a BROAD range of recordings?

Am i alone and crazy on this point or what? Yay or nay? (smile)

While i can appreciate how moving up to more exotic gear (so called "higher fidelity"(yes and no)) can improve the sound of SOME recordings ...I don't appreciate what it does to OTHER recordings. These other recordings, i would argue are not necessarily "poor" recordings. SOME of these just APPEAR to be poor. The problem is...that the system is too revealing so as to not compliment certain BRANDS of recordings.

Take for example... "tape hiss". If a state of the art system reveals tape hiss but a lesser system does not and therefore does not let that aspect interfere with the music...How can it be said that the state of the art system is categorically better? Isn't a system that doesn't reveal the tape hiss but still keeps the music in tact, isn't it actually "better" since being able to hear the "tape hiss" wasn't the goal or intention of either the producers or the artists as part of the playback? That is they would not want or expect a system to playback the "hiss" ALONG with THEIR MUSIC and have it be called a good playback system.

It doesn't mean they had a "weak system" with which they recorded since they couldn't spot the hiss when they were in the studio mixing room. For that time it might very well be they had a very good studio system.

So, say you are sincere about your quest for hi fidelity and want to make no compromises in any area!...how are you going to get it across a broad range of music? ..."hi fidelity" (hi fidelity my foot!)

It seems we would need to own several system's to accommodate each era of recording quality and "type". Now, if you don't want to do that (i certainly don't)...you're basically stuck? How do you achieve your goal of hi fidelity? You don't. You ultimately have to compromise. But "hi fidelity" and "compromise" ...to me... is a contradiction in terms? That's my beef with "hifi". (I mean, i am happy and content with hifi in some areas but in others i am not)

Some recordings are in fact not poor (as some highly resolving system would seem to tell), they are just DIFFERENT and are better served on a different kind of system belonging to that period.

Their will of course be exceptions and it should be understood this is true in degrees.

Take for example the 80's ? song "never surrender" by cory hart.

Why can it be said that on my lesser system years back, i concluded it to be a "great sounding recording" and with my new system i conclude it to be a "good sounding recording"?

The former was more pleasurable than the latter. What criteria or test do we determine the truth of whether or not it is a good recording? The new system?.... that reveals "a tape hiss" or ...the older system?... that does not?

Which is "hi fidelity" in this one specific example and which is not?

On a different recording you may have a different winner.

***The intense lighting in a hospital operating room will be more revealing than the light emanating from a fireplace, but I will always prefer to gaze at, even the most flawlessly beautiful woman, by firelight. It’s not less truthful, it’s just another aspect of the truth.***

Beauty or truth?

Maybe the best way to determine whether or not one has a "hi fidelity" system is to ask oneself "how MUSICAL is this system...how much do i enjoy listening to ALL my collection?"(irregardless of ANYTHING else...) and when you can say it is in fact very musical! then you have in fact found YOUR brand of "hi fidelity".

.

Ever heard the term,"the devil is in the details"?

Or, "you ain't heard nothing yet"?

All music is sound,not all sound is music.

The novice musician can make sounds on his instrument of choice,it takes time and practise to make music.

It also takes time and patience and the practise of trial and error to bring out the hidden details in a piece of recorded music.

When someone purchases a pair of pants, would they be content if what they brought home only had one pant's leg?

And yet this is what so many music lovers,or the folks who aren't concerned about retrieving all the details,would have us believe.

They are perfectly content with the sound of their systems and don't feel the need to push the envelope.

I find the pursuit of details and lost nuggets of musical information to be very stimulating, and as such, a night of listening is a real adventure.

My guess is that the other half are more comfortable with a system that is less than resolving, and less revealing of inner detail.Or a one pant leg pair of pants system.

Well I know we all fly by the seat of our pants when we build our systems,but it seems that the folks who are content with one pant's leg are mostly unaware that the other pant's leg is missing.Perhaps, also unaware that there is a whole world out there enjoying pants with two pant's legs.

So while I seek to stimulate my senses, others are seeking to numb their senses.
A numbing down of society?

Or maybe they have never heard a system that can retrieve loads of inner detail that can also be very easy on the ears?

Someone has mentioned that audiophiles tune their systems and so that only certain types of music or components sound pleasing to their ears.

That's true.
That's why there are so many different companies and components to choose from.Aren't we lucky?

We get to decide.
No one is telling us what to choose.

When I was younger, all that mattered to me was how deep and loud I could make the bass go in my system.So I voiced my system with gear that gave me that.

I've moved on, and discovered that there's a lot of other things that are more important. And that great bass by and of itself is only one aspect of music.There's more to the equation.
Balance is a word that comes to mind, and a well balanced system is lacking nothing nor is there too much of anything.And that goes for detail.

How can you have too much detail?
You can't add anymore detail than was on the recording, but you sure can loose a lot of it.

Everything needs to be in it's place,just the way it's was intended to be at the recording session.
If the background vocals weren't integral to the music then why did they bother recording them ?
Why then,settle for a system that will keep them hidden?

It's all music,you paid for it, the producer charged you for it,but you don't care to listen to it?
It's too much information?

If it is then accuracy doesn't matter at all.
Give me meat and potatoes, or so it would seem.
Anything else and it's a waste of my chewing time.

The old bass heavy system of years gone by was lacking in resolution, but it rocked, even if I didn't know there were three guitars four background singers and several other assorted instruments buried in the muck.

When I revisit those old recordings from my youth and play them on my system today, I am amazed at how much more there is to them besides bass whacks.I enjoy them on a completely different level today.

Coming at this topic from a muscian's point of view, there is as much music in the space between the notes as there is in the notes themselves.

If all the spaces and the notes are blurred or indistinguishable, how can the music be enjoyed?If you can't hear all that the recording engineer put into the recording,you are doing him, the artist and yourself a disservice.

If only a portion of the musical information is retrieved, then one is only enjoying a portion of the musical experience.You are denying yourself the full experience.
It's the sundae without the whipped cream and cherry on top.

Which brings up another old saying, "you don't know what you are missing".

RE***Ever heard the term,"the devil is in the details"?***

RE***Which brings up another old saying, "you don't know what you are missing".***

In a friendly manner, all i can say is..."you are preaching to the choir" and perhaps you have not understood the points I/WE are trying to make.

Nobody here is strictly preaching AGAINST a system that is superbly/highly resolving.

You seem to believe that it is possible to have state of the art resolution and AT THE SAME TIME have all recordings in one's collection sound wonderfully musical. Perhaps that has been your experience. It has not been mine.(i do not consider my system "state of the art") Perhaps, we are different kinds of listeners and have different preferences and therefore we are defending two different things.

On norah jones's debut lp and a few other lps, I like you have done everything i know how to "resolve the devils in the details" and guess what? i think i have succeeded at that masterfully. Fine and ok. But what about my other lp's? Why doesn't the amazing sound i've acheived with those recordings translate over to the rest of my collection?

You might answer...well, those lps weren't up to snuff and that's fine with you because you are ok with listening with warts and all. And i can partly understand and accept that too. I think i know what you mean here.

But...

I just feel and know from experience that it would be possible to make those other lps to sound better than they do then when the system is dialed in for those few select recordings already mentioned(norah jones, etc). How? Through subtle or major system changes.

This will make the DETAILS in THOSE lps sound more right, more musical but NOT necessarily at the expense of resolution but rather in regard to HOW those details are RENDERED.

Now, if i make those other lps sound as good as is possible through long hours of listening and tweaking and i can finally say , yes, they sound great , they sound musical, the details are there but then i go a put back on the norah jones lp it now is no longer sounding as good as it did before!

I care just as much as you about the rendering of fine details in a recording but have found as soon as you have achieved that on certain lps you lose some of it on others and vice versa.

My European mother and father you to say " you can't have your butt on two chairs at the same time" In other words, you have to choose one or the other. (smiling)

There is the possibility that without knowing it your system is actually one of the systems that pulls back from extreme resolution and is making a majority of albums sound great to you. Or maybe you really haven't achieved perfect timbres, which by the way is a extremely narrow window to operate and move in and therefore your system is more broad and forgiving. I'm not saying it is...i'm saying...maybe.

But if you were to try and push the envelope, REALLY push it! you would find the same problem?

At the same time it is also possible that MY system has some kind of character or attribute that makes some lps sound stellar but others a bit off. Perhaps i can make the majority of the different types of recordings all sound as good as a select number of lps by some kind of change. I don't know what that change would be and i confess i am skeptical about achieving the goal of being able to render timbres (high resolution) perfectly across most lps, most of the time.

I guess some would argue that in light of all this (this huge obstacle/challenge) perhaps it is better to sacrifice A LITTLE BIT of resolution to make more lps, more satisfying. NO, we are not saying go to zero resolution or wear one pant legged pants but perhaps it makes sense to take a few degrees off in the resolution department to make more lps enjoyable, the way the artist and producers would have wanted.

If norah jones sounds great and the playbacks resolution is wonderfull who can tell me i need to change something? If i've acheived the goals you subscribe to why is there still a problem? How do i proceed to make my other lps sound like this one without changing anything in the system, since if i do, norah jones won't have great resolution anymore if i do?

The sun is a good thing and helps us to see but staring into the sun for too long could ultimately leave us blind. Between seeing and going blind there are many graduations in between and we argue it is important to strike a kind of optimal balance and that sometimes it is possible to go too far one way so that what was once perceived as progress, actually is not?

.