Possible impedance matching issue with subwoofer?


Ok, many of us know about the importance of impedance matching with gear. I guess I have not thought enough about this with my sub. My sub is a powered sub like many are. It has it's own built in plate amp. The input impedance of these plate amps/powered subs is often quite low. Mine and many are 20k ohms or so. My preamp has an output impedance of 5k ohms, making for a possible poor match with the sub if I use the 2nd outputs on my pre into the sub's RCA inputs. This is the way I now use the sub.

I suppose I could hook the sub up by going from my amp to the high level inputs on my sub? I could simply run a second set of speaker cables out from my amp to my 2 subs this way right? This would avoid the impedance issue with my pre. Am I thinking correctly?

I think my subs may be rolling off the deep bass because of the impedance issue?

The system sounds very good as is, just wondering if perhaps I am onto something I have missed with possible bass performance improvement.
128x128grannyring
Koestner, I have only seen these placed between the preamp and cd or dac. Can it be placed between my preamp and sub amps and work fine?

I assume the second set of preamp outs go into the x10 inputs and then I output to the sub's plate amps right? Is this better or the same as placing the x10 between the cd player and pre? Will my preamps output impedance be lowered by placing the x10 between cd player and preamp? Lowered in the same way as placing it between the pre and subs......
Grannyring, the answers to the four questions in your last post are:

1)Yes
2)Yes
3)Different
4)No

Also, I would be cautious in extrapolating from the results a buffer provides in one system to the results it would provide in another system, unless there is a good understanding of the reasons for the improvements it provided in the first system.

Best regards,
-- Al
First off, I must say that Al definately knows more about electronics/stereos than me from my reading of these forums for so long. So with a bit of confusion I am asking - "Why aren't we seeing this the same way?" This is what I think:

A preamp to amp connection should have an impedance ratio of at least 40:1 from the amps input to the pre out. So if the OP's pre has an output impedance of 5K, and his amp has an input imp of 450K, then his ratio is 90:1

Now if he hooks up the sub using the 2nd line level output on his preamp and the sub has an input inp of only 20K, then the 20K and the 450K are seen to be in parallel by the preamp and thus the preamp is now seeing an input impedance of only 19K, and a ratio of 4.

Won't this cause rolloffs of the frequency lows and highs? It did when I hooked my passive preamp to my amp and sub by splitting the signals, but when I used a buffer to the sub it sounded much better through my mains.

I see this as a necessity for the OP to at least try as a ratio of 4:1 is a serious mismatch compare to his original value of 90.

Al, what are your thoughts here?
Hi Koestner,
A preamp to amp connection should have an impedance ratio of at least 40:1 from the amps input to the pre out. So if the OP's pre has an output impedance of 5K, and his amp has an input imp of 450K, then his ratio is 90:1

Now if he hooks up the sub using the 2nd line level output on his preamp and the sub has an input inp of only 20K, then the 20K and the 450K are seen to be in parallel by the preamp and thus the preamp is now seeing an input impedance of only 19K, and a ratio of 4.
Agreed 100%, assuming that only a nominal preamp output impedance (5K in this case) is known. If the worst case (maximum) preamp output impedance across the 20 Hz to 20 kHz frequency range is known, the 40:1 figure could be comfortably reduced to 10:1.
Won't this cause rolloffs of the frequency lows and highs?
Sometimes.

Achieving a high ratio of load impedance to output impedance will definitely eliminate the possibility of rolloffs or other frequency response irregularities due to impedance incompatibilities. However, that does not NECESSARILY mean that a low ratio will cause problems.

If all of the impedances that are involved do not vary significantly as a function of frequency (meaning that they are essentially resistive), and if the sum of the capacitances of the two interconnect cables is kept appropriately low in relation to the output impedance of the preamp at high frequencies, the only consequence of the low ratio would be a slight attenuation that would affect all frequencies equally, and that would be easily compensated for by turning the volume control up slightly.

Earlier in the thread we established that cable capacitance is a non-issue in Grannyring's case. The very high nominal output impedance of the preamp, and the relatively high value of its output coupling capacitor, as I see it suggest that the output impedance of the preamp is likely to vary relatively little as a function of frequency. My analysis earlier in the thread indicated that the output impedance rise at low frequencies is likely to affect the deep bass very minimally, if at all. And I see no particular reason to suspect in this case that the output impedance will rise significantly at high frequencies (which would cause an upper treble rolloff, given the 19K loading), although there are at least a few preamps for which that does occur.

The usually unspecified input capacitance of the sub and the power amp could also affect the highs, in conjunction with the preamp's output impedance, but the total cable capacitance of only 159 pf (13 feet x 12.2 pf/ft) would seem low enough to provide a reasonable margin for that.
I see this as a necessity for the OP to at least try as a ratio of 4:1 is a serious mismatch compare to his original value of 90.
So given the foregoing, I see it as something to consider, but I would keep in mind what I consider to be a significant chance that there may not be a problem at present that it would solve (although it could conceivably affect the sound produced by the sub just as a result of its own intrinsic sonic character).

I would also suggest that further consideration be given to trying the speaker-level connections. After thinking further about the issues Grannyring cited concerning uncertainty about the grounding configuration in the sub, I don't see that that has any relevance. What is needed is identification of a connection point to the circuit ground of the Atlas amp (perhaps Aesthetix can confirm whether or not a chassis screw would be such a point, or it could be checked with a multimeter). The negative high-level input terminal of the sub would be connected to that point, with the positive high-level terminal of the sub being connected to the positive output terminal of the amp. If that is done, the internal grounding configuration of the sub would be irrelevant, as I see it, aside from the usual possibility that a slight ground loop hum could conceivably occur.

Best regards,
-- Al
Thanks Al for taking the time to write such an informing response. In my case I noticed a distinct reduction of the sparkle in the highs. So I got a much better sound using the buffer, then I just concluded that it's that impedence issue that I had read about on these forums. Not knowing that it is much more complex then that, I figured the ratio thing was written in stone. So now what comes to mind is the Seierra Audio amps and preamps that have reportably excellent sound that have identical output to input impedence (75 Ohms) and use a BNC coaxial wire to connect them. This effectively is a ratio of only 1:1 yet people say it sounds great. So as you say there is more to it.

Thank you for sticking with this thread and I'm sure that others as well as myself have benefited from this discussion.