Audiogon members poor packing and shipping damage

You have to ship things bomb proof. I use original boxes and another box with foam in it for anything I ship. When you buy something always use a CC linked to paypal and use your credit card company to get you a chargeback. If there is a claim for damage, the shipper pays the seller and the seller reimburses the buyer. I agree tubes should always be shipped in their own containers just like the way they are shipped from the dealer. Then double box for safety.

Lets to to the UPS. It is not for no reason that UPS generally only pays damage claims on electronics if the item is shipped in the manufacturers boxes and uses all he manufacturers packing materials. Even then, you have a hassel since older items did not have the packing and shipping standards that are practice today. A must is double boxing and let the UPS store do the boxing of the original boxes and packing materials. So, any buy is risky unless picked up and the seller demo's the item before your cash is in his hand. By the way, UPS can deny, out of hand, any shipment that did not use the original manufacturers packing materials and boxes.

If I do not have the original packing materials I pay FedEx or UPS to pack the items in order that if I need to place a claim they can't claim that the item was improperly packed.

A good seller packages items to withstand the worst conceivable handling for the item being shipped. This should be considered a two-way street in that there is nothing wrong with the buyer taking an interest in how an item is go be packaged, especially something heavy, big, and/or fragile.

Buyers should ask how the seller intends to package their newly purchased item, whether the original manufacturer's packaging will be used, and what shape that packaging is in. If an item has been shipped many times, the once good original packaging may no longer be adequate. I received a "new demo" NAT Symmetrical preamp (an expensive, large and quite heavy preamp) in a "wood box." Believe me, there is a world of difference between the Lamm amps I have received in their foam lined, braced, wood boxes, and this crappy NAT packaging. The preamp was essentially riding loose with minimal pieces of broken styrofoam inside of a broken thin particle board enclosure. There were not even any braces at the corners or edges - sheet rock screws drilled through small metal angles and, in some cases, drilled directly into the edges of the thin particle board, were the only supports holding the box together! And yes, the preamp was damaged when received. In this case I had asked the seller specifically about the quality of the packaging and was assured by the seller, who is an audio dealer, that the packaging was excellent. Within a day I had contacted the seller and sent digital pictures of the damage. After some negotiation, the preamp was returned.

I also agree with Elizabeth's 7-day rule. If you will not be available to take shipment, then have the seller delay sending the item. What if it arrives pancaked? Do you want the delivery person to simply drop it off on your porch? A responsible buyer should arrange to be available to receive shipment or at least to verify the condition within a day of arrival. The item should be auditioned and verified to work properly within a day, and no more than 3 days, of receiving shipment. Buying a used item from the internet is different than taking a shipment of a pair of jeans from Macy's. The buyer needs to understand the two-way communication necessary to create a win-win for both parties. Ideally, both buyer and seller need to be on their game, not only to prevent scams, etc., but simply as a matter of mutual respect.

Ask about double boxing if you belive that may be necessary. Lamm industries does not recommend shipping using any other method than FedEx Saver - which is a 3-day air method. The big shippers use third-party truckers for ground shipping and there is no QA as to how the package will be treated. Sure, air shipping methods cost extra money, but my experience is the items are handled with more care and arrive sooner (so less time in the shipper's hands), resulting in less risk of damage.

Finally, never ship big speakers solely in the manufacturer's packaging. Put them on a pallet and have them trucked. The incident of damage is just too common. Even for medium speakers, provide a minimum of auxillary packaging to protect them from drops etc. The heavier and bulkier an item is, the more likely an incident where it is dropped or falls off the dreaded conveyor.

These are my personal observations and practices and except for some early lessons learned the hard way, they have served me very well.

In the case of audiogon, where delicate items costing thousands of dollars or more are shipped regularly, its even more important than in many cases that things be done right.

A $10000 amp or pair of speakers is too costly and risky for buyer and seller to not pack properly. The cost to do so may be significant but a small % of the total cost. WHoever ends up paying for it based on negotiation, terms, whatever it has to be done.

Its both parties responsibility but the buyer is theone most likely to suffer in the case of a problem, so a smart buyer will make sure everything is in line with the seller to best assure safe shipping and perhaps insurance before the item is shipped, ideally before even payed for. If a seller would not cooperate with me on this, then I would look for another seller.

Ronald Reagan in his infinite wisdom did say it best: "Trust, but verify".