I have so often commented about UPS, but will reiterate. I cannot imagine how they stay in business. They are more expensive that FedEx Ground and only note the "shock in their system" to account for damage done in their shipping.
This case really sounds like seller's incompetence in packing, however. I certainly have experienced this. Once when I still used UPS, I went out to their office to pick up a turntable. I took one look at the package with holes and open flaps and refused it. I am not sure that is even an option anymore. The seller was outraged. I told him to learn to pack. |
This is turning into an excellent thread to help newer members understand the risks associated with buying and selling online, and steps they can take to avoid problems. The collective experience here is impressive. Unfortunately, we are mostly "preaching to the choir," since the folks on this thread are not the ones causing the problems. IMO, the collective quotes below are priceless as a guide to staying out of trouble when buying and selling on this site; I routinely take hours to carefully pack and also to document the entire process with digital pics so if there are any issues with shipping I have good documentation. If you read my feedback it reflects the extra effort I take. It is the sellers obligation to properly package all items to withstand the stresses of shipping. A little extra thought and effort, plus a few dollars in extra shipping materials, could have prevented all of this hassle. I go out of my way to OVER package and make sure the item will arrive in perfect shape.
If you must use foam peanuts, the ONLY appropriate place is between the two boxes. I place high value on original manufacturer packaging, yes it adds to the buying cost, but it's worth it. If you tried to save some dough by buying something cheaper that doesn't have all of it's original packaging....well, you learned the hard way. I do not accept damaged items. If it's well packed in original shipping container and damage occurs, the seller should be able to collect on the insurance. DO NOT ship it back without contacting the seller, or the insurance he purchased would become invalid. The buyer needs to have some responsibility here. I think they need to thoroughly inspect the item within 48 hours of delivery. I usually look for items with original packaging and members with excellent feedback to help eliminate this issue. When i ship i make certain the item can be used as a football in a really ROUGH game, or dropped 20 feet. Because both have happened to stuff i got. And yeah the idiots who stick a heavy item in a box of loose peanuts wins the idiot award every time. Best for the buyer to confirm details of how gear will be shipped with the seller beforehand just to be sure. I put fragile labels everywhere, with heavy insurance, things get thrown harder. I witnessed it numerous times from the conveyors, the trucks, to the doorstep. Pack well or pay later. The buyer has to assume some liability in this transaction and checking the gear out promptly should be expected. UPS generally only pays damage claims on electronics if the item is shipped in the manufacturers boxes and uses all he manufacturers packing materials. So, any buy is risky unless picked up and the seller demo's the item before your cash is in his hand. If I do not have the original packing materials I pay FedEx or UPS to pack the items in order that if I need to place a claim they can't claim that the item was improperly packed. there is nothing wrong with the buyer taking an interest in how an item is going be packaged, especially something heavy, big, and/or fragile. never ship big speakers solely in the manufacturer's packaging. Put them on a pallet and have them trucked. It's both parties responsibility but the buyer is the one most likely to suffer in the case of a problem, so a smart buyer will make sure everything is in line with the seller to best assure safe shipping and perhaps insurance before the item is shipped, ideally before even paid for. If a seller would not cooperate with me on this, then I would look for another seller. You'd have to more than a few screws loose if you just stick something haphazardly in a box and send it on its merry way. The bottom line is that the buyer does have to take some responsibility in the transaction. You gotta do your own homework or be prepared to gamble a bit. Audiogon terms clearly state it's the sellers responsibility to get the item to you in the condition advertised. I've learned through bitter experience not to take pp funded via a credit card. The seller has NO PROTECTION. You don't even get the gear back. in fairness, weird stuff does happen in shipping--i.e. meticulously packaged gear from reputable sellers which arrives mysteriously broken. I think some of these problems should just be looked at as part of the discount inherent in buying used equipment. If you're not buying from professionals, then you shouldn't expect professional level service. At best you should expect well intentioned, talented amateur level quality. It's important to remember that even for simple tasks repetition leads to increased competence. I will caution that original packing is not always all its cracked up to be, esp if:
1. Its old.
2. It's been shipped back and forth across the country 20X
3. It's been left in a damp basement and the corrugated has started to soften up. As a practical matter as part of negotiation include details of your expectations about shipping. I feel little sympathy for those who try to save extra money by buying items without proper packaging who later get a shipping *surprise*. Cheaper is not always the best way to go. In summary, as a buyer it is best to; 1.Buy from experienced sellers, or accept the potential for additional risks, 2.Communicate directly with the seller and take an active role in how your new item will be packaged and shipped, and 3.Be available to inspect the item upon arrival and promptly contact the seller if there are problems. |
When buying or selling are we able to communicate directly without having to "publicly post" our email or private number for the world to see?
Ever since the web format changed it's not possible, which is really dumb if you ask me. |
Polk432,
OK, I'll go ahead and post the details here to warn others -- in case it might help.
I bought a Quantum Symphony tweak about a month ago from joe0506jj. He had one negative feedback but the positives looked legit. He was shipping the item from Australia to me in Asia by EMS courier. The item arrived at the EMS office here a few days later but since I live in a remote area I could only pick it up a couple of days ago. According to the seller, since it took me a month to complain my complaint has no validity. I explained to him that I live in a remote area and it took me that time to pick it up. I didn't mention being holed up with bronchitis which added to the delay this time. I have to wait for pick-up of all the audio equipment I have shipped here so a delay of several weeks is normal for me.
The item arrived in a single flimsy cardboard box -- 1mm to 2mm thickness -- that was placed inside a thin plastic postal envelope with no padding. There were a few pieces of Styrofoam popcorn in the box but the AC adapter was sliding around freely on top of the black box. The adapter was cracked. In the ad photo there was scotch tape around the adapter and I assumed it was to keep the spec label attached to the adapter since this is an old item -- rated 7/10. But now I suspect the tape was possibly to keep the adapter from falling apart because there was an all-the-way-through crack in the adapter on the side that never appeared in ad photos -- where the two halves of the adapter join together.
Also, the jack in the back of the box was not aligning with the hole in the black box. I found this odd. I shook the box gently and the contents were rattling around inside. I took a close look. It was clear the back of the unit had been removed and replaced back-to-front. The item had been tampered with in some way. I plugged the AC adapter in the wall and the light in the front of the unit did not come on.
I emailed the seller immediately. He said the item was mint when he shipped it -- not 7/10 as stated in the ad. His response was everything from "you're kidding me" to "are you nuts". In fractured English he responded "To have someone like you insisted on $200 10year old packed in a box filled with styrofoam and yet you insisted "must be double box" You obviously have no common sense of commercial ..."
The seller started to make outlandish statements. He said because I live in a third world country that must be the reason for the damage -- the post office must have abused the package. Next he said the tampering must have been dome by EMS. I pointed out to him that the package was flimsy and that in all the years I have been receiving EMS packages I have never had a single problem. We have FedEx and DHL here and I have never had a single problem with them either. Of course, the seller needed to find SOME reason to dismiss the validity of my report. Anything he could make up would do.
When he started to write insults I filed a PayPal dispute. He upped it to a claim. That's it for now. The $246 will not kill me if I lose it. That's not the point. The point is that he is saying I am responsible for the damage and the loss and that if I had wanted it double boxed I should have asked. Does this mean sellers are not responsible for proper packaging and that the onus is on the buyer in this department?
When I ship audio equipment -- and I ship all lover the world -- I make sure to double box and to put ample foam, bubble pack and/or Styrofoam peanuts in the boxes. I never ask the buyers what they want. They sometimes ask about boxing and I let them know the item will be carefully double boxed. In all the years I have never had a single problem with buyers regarding packaging. |
Rx8man, yes, that is why I dislike the new Audiogon procedures.
Sabai, your only real recourse is negative feedback but that is quite limited in Audiogon. All that I can say is that I have had only two instances were packing was totally inadequate cause damage. One I noticed and refused it. The other I just got a broken piece and ended up repairing it enough to use. |
