If you had to pay full retail, would you...???

No, never, no way.

12-28-06: D_edwards
Let me explain something most audiophiles really have trouble with;

I'm sure your customers enjoy paying more money for the condescending tone. I enjoy being talked down to, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.(Note: Sarcasm Alert)

Well now audiophiles are down too public forums and "public" trade shows to spend thousands of dollars most of you have to talk to a deadbeat 50 year old types or some kid because stores cannot hire real professionals and you spend thousands and thousands of dollars on advice from people who simply do not have the expertise to give it.

Now even a simpleton like myself can understand, so only knowledgeable folks in their 30's really know audio.....ahhhhh the picture is becoming clearer. Now I know to check the salesman's driver's license to make sure he's in his 30's. Thanks Audio Super Salesman!! Great Tip!!!

Most people in my age (30 something) who are smart and creative have left the industry altogether or have moved up into the rep levels where they do not help the end user anymore.

So what does this say about you Audio Super Salesman??? Are you not smart and creative???

By the way 15 years in the business, and I don't know one guy in the world who is that retail level who'd i trust to build a system for me.
D_edwards (System | Answers)

Well shoot Audio Super Salesman, if you can't trust anyone in the retail level, how does a simple, naive, audiophile like me stand a chance???

I'll sleep better tonight knowing that you are here to protect us Audio Super Salesman!!

“I'm quite comfortable paying full retail for the gear I buy from my local dealer…. It doesn't take many "discount mistakes" to offset the cost of a paying a good dealer his markup”.

Gliderguider, I found your comments of interest and took a few moments to take a look at your system (very nice!), which according to your figures (and the fact that you say you pay full retail to your dealer) exceeds $90,000. This is an extraordinary investment. My question to you is how do you feel about selling your equipment at a loss of as much as 40% or even 50% (and we all know with some gear the loss can be even worse) when you decide to upgrade? Unless you are one of those rare individuals who put together a system and keep it for 10 or more years the “discount mistakes” occur every time you get the itch to try something new. And given the obvious fact that you must be one of your dealer’s better customers, don’t you think it appropriate that he offer you a discount on items such as cables that have markups often in the range of several thousand per cent.

I have no objection to supporting your local dealer, especially if you find a good one and have the financial resources to do so, but I believe you will find a good number of audiophiles on this site who have skills equal to your dealer (sometimes better) when it comes to selecting audio components and putting them into a system that is musically synergistic. And they are doing so sometimes for 30 or 40 cents on the dollar by taking advantage of the used market. I have been in this hobby for 30 years or more and have owned lots of gear in that time. Rarely have I paid full retail for new gear. So far I’ve yet to meet a dealer whose skill at listening and selecting components exceeded my own. And the vast majority are simply good salesmen (if they stay in business) who offer products that meet their particular bias and that they feel they can best sell for a good profit.

Most on this site I would venture do not have the resources to purchase expensive audio components (often much overpriced ‘luxury’ items) and own $100K retail systems such as yourself. For those who have the money and do not have the time or inclination to learn how to build a good system on their own a dealer such as yours certainly becomes an asset. For those who do, Audiogon and other used avenues are a great tool for achieving the same end for sometimes as little as 20 cents on the dollar. So far in my many years as an audiophile I have made no “discount mistakes.”

Justlisten…this brings me to your original question, and my answer is no, I would not be participating in the purchase of “specialized, expensive, low production gear if it was only available New and at full retail.” Anymore all too much of high-end audio has gone the route of catering to the ‘carriage trade,’ and hopefully more than a few of us have figured out that is only about perceived status and inflation of the ego. Less and less it is about music, and more and more about material possessions. I am a musician and my love of music is the reason I got started in this hobby as a young teenager. I could be happy with much less (and probably not give up that much), but taking advantage of the used market and the fickle nature of audiophiles who are never satisfied has allowed me to continue to own ‘expensive’ gear at more reasonable prices even as the price of our hobby has gone into the stratisphere. But I fear the insane pricing we are seeing today is a prelude to the end of specialized audio, and it is too bad that manufactures are allowing their greed to exclude a new batch of young audiophiles. When a newcomer sees a single 1 meter digital cable or power cord that retails for $3500 (and costs the manufacture maybe $100 to make) it not only makes our hobby look insane, but also unobtainable to most. Little wonder Apple is selling tens of thousands of iPods every day and high-end audio had its best years in the 80’s. The fact of the matter is most of the extremely expensive audio gear available today is not that much better than what can be had at sane prices, and in many cases no better at all (often just clever marketing, snake oil, or just a really nice paint job like Wilson loudspeakers). As is often the case, and with so many things, it all boils down to the laws of diminishing returns.

12-28-06: Jmcgrogan2

.... Note: Sarcasm Alert

Gee - you weren't kidding. Hope you slept well.

Regards,

George my quintessential doesn't get it guy! All that "room" isn't keeping them in business now is it?

Does your boss ask you to wiggle on your salary? Don't you have some wiggle room?, certainly you're not worth what you make all the time right?

Save your boss 33% on a project by making a smooth move and he says hey lets cut your paycheck 15% this week for the thanks. Cause we appreciate all you do for us. Yeah that never happens. So stop being a hypocrit and suggest that I take the hit in my wallet when I could have been the 2nd rate dealer who carries overpriced underperforming products with a popular name brand on it instead of good speakers. Thanks, and your advice sucks, cause then everyone of his cheap audiophile friends/refferrals will want a 15% discount and then my boss can't afford me and well now I coach football.

In the end George there is no wiggle room anymore, infact their is no margin to hire people with serious qualification into the retail level of audio. As the equipment improves the demands on the end user goes up to maximize the potential of your investment. Maybe you like going to the lonely guys house who has decided to carry a few brands and knows about nothing and has a conviction that $7 ($250 retail) AC outlets is the number one way to make a great system. That's what we're left with. Semi-pro's,

Do you know I bet there is less than 5 people on this entire board who can setup a surround system so it works properly! Especially the dealers who will sell the system to you without the wiggle room.

Most 2nd hand systems can be bested by buying the right gear at retail prices. It is extremely rare that the 2nd hander doesn't sabotage his system with the "irresisteable deal" on a super component that inevitably messes up his entire system. Time and again I had to deal with 2nd hand dudes who simply could not overcome the view of what they were saving versus what they were spending to make the system right.

audiophiles are masochists that way.