life without audio dealers

for a brick and mortar store to keep up with the fickled nature of the lunatic fringe, the store would have to change brands faster than changing clothes. we would all like to believe the latest piece of gear is the greatest, but the 'belief' is generally just a 'compulsion' to spend money and try something different. like it or note, most music lovers do not need the trappings of hi end audio. In fact, more and more are jumping off the merry go round, than jumping on....stores or no stores

T-bone & Bar81,

The reason behind my statement is that most often, to the point of being a near universal, complaint of folks who buy speakers (only) on the basis of a dealers demo and then take them home to discover that their room is too small, too large, has the wrong dimensions, that their rooms configuration doesn't allow for optimum set up, that thier electronics either don't have synergy or that the amp/speakers don't match., etc, and they then post here wanting to know what electronis they should get, how to set up their stuff to make it work, and how to treat their rooms, what kind of wires, cords, and IC's, they can buy to justify their decision they made in their speaker purchase.

If a person is well versed in audiophelia and knows all of the possibilities then perhaps he would have an excellent chance of succeeding with a purchase based on a showroom listening session. I just did that! Successfully!. But I knew what I was listening for and I knew the demo components strengths and failures sufficiently to make good judgments. I also knew how the speakers would set up in my room.

But FWIW, in the mid 80's I bought a pair of Thiels based on a showroom demo and its reputation. It had thunderous and tight bass, great imaging, etc, etc, etc and I had no meaningful point of comparison in the show room where the set up and electronics had been optomized to match with the music being demo'ed.

I got them home - all pumped up! In my room I found that my room did not support the bass very well, and it was bright beyond bearing. We didn't have the internet then, only the rags (Cordesman loved my speakers) and dealers and I had trusted them.

Since I couldn't take them back I tried to make them work. Mod'd the cross over (as per Thiels rec's) went thru some amps til I 'found' the amp Thiel used in the speakers design process, got a new pre-amp (tubes) and over hauled my sources. Two years later when I had these speakers up to par, so to speak, I was so worn out by it all that I was happy to sell them to another eager novice who bought based on the same reviews and general reputation.

I think at that time my experience level was not all that different from the folks who post threads here asking for help and opinions about potential selections.

So I don't really care what all of the experienced audiophiles (you guys) can do, I'm far more interested in what will work out better for the beginning audiophiles and what will help them avoid some of the traps.

FWIW. BTW, how is that for an extremely narrow point of view?

With the rise of the 'Net (and especially the 'Gon) and the demise of the brick and morter, audio dealers just don't play in my pursuit of audio. Maybe if I was in NYC I'd stop by and say hi to Andy, but the limited, limited range of equipment available at a local dealer, plus the takeover by video, makes the dealer less and less relevant. And that's not even getting into price markups and attitudes when you walk in. New speakers locally--sure if I can find them. The rest, hello, you've got mail.

Unfortunately a lot of this discussion seems to be turning into a black and white situation. It is almost as if some are saying that if the dealer won't deliver endless pairs of expensive speakers to their homes for lengthy trials, then a B&M dealer is of no value whatsoever.

That is a "reductio ad absurdum" argument.

Yes, it is great when you can hear equipment in your own home before buying. I've had that pleasure and it is the "10" on a scale of 1 to 10 for a buyer.

However, if I get my choice of just reading or talking about a product before I buy it or actually listening to it, I'll take the listening choice, thank you. Listening in a dealer's room is very valuable to me, even if imperfect.

Even then, one has ample opportunity to tell the dealer about your room size, layout and other equipment, along with what type of music you favor and "how" you listen. Most dealers will be glad just to take your money if you want something, but I've also found them willing to discuss concerns you may have.

(On a side note, one thing that many dealers find aggravating about certain audiophiles is their strong desire to already know everything. This often prevents them from even asking for suggestions and help, or keeps them from accepting or even considering valuable advice.)

I'm not an audio dealer (though I did manage a stereo store some 30 years ago.) The types of buyers and the egos people have really haven't changed that much in that time frame. We're still human - the world would be a great place if everyone would just do things our way.

Things are messier these days with more products on the market and more distribution options. The Walmarts of the world and internet sales have affected all businesses; the audio world is hardly alone in this regard. That has made some things better and other things worse, but here we nonetheless.

'will admit that I have done the borrow "product" from my local hifi shop just to purchase it cheaper online, and I would probably do it again. No reason to pay retail plus tax when you can purchase at a fraction of retail, right?'

followed by....

'this would require people to open their homes to others'

Ben, you don't have any concerns about ripping off the dealers' time and resources; you think i'm gonna invite you into my house??? To extend your reasoning, why pay retail when you can just steal it? LOL

Seriously though, dealers are still relevant for many, i believe. Keep in mind that the opinions expressed in these forums are typically those of experienced, internet savvy 'philes with years of involvement in higher fi. I believe we represent a very tiny minority of those interested in good sound. It certainly isn't helpful to the cause of failing dealer support that there are too many dealers out there who have alienated the audiophile, myself included. i honestly can't remember the last time i had anything but a disasterous experience at a hifi shop. Some of them just don't seem to get it, even while they watch their customer base shrink and shrink and shrink some more.That said, we all know that there are some great dealers out there that earn their business by providing invaluable services to us and to those who may want great sound but don't have the time or interest to turn it into an obsession, like some of us do. Not all 'philes or potential 'philes have the time or energy to devote the time required to build a great system, and there is way too much gear out there that just isn't worth anywhere near the asking price. A very good dealer can be an enormous benefit guiding a customer. In the end, audio stores can survive if they offer a good service to consumers in a value sense and as specialists with superior product knowledge and customer support. Unless of course, Ben and his type take advantage of their honest efforts to provide a good customer experience and they throw their hands up in futility. Honestly Ben, what you're doing is not cool, ok?