life without audio dealers

Mrtennis, if the audiophile world were to devolve into small manufacturers directly marketing their products, then how many electrostatic speakers do you think would be on the market? Small may be beautiful but it's not particularly economically efficient nor do truly small companies spend much on R&D. The end result could be higher prices for less innovative products.

The music business may offer insight into what you propose. The major record labels have basically withdrawn from new artist development which leaves new bands with the problem of how to get their music heard. The internet, constant touring, OST or TV placements, video games, etc. are all being used. But from the consumers' POV how does one shift through all the media for something they would like? The record labels once served as a filter for getting the best, well at least the best commercially viable, music to the public. The audio dealer also serves such a function. In a world with hundreds of audio manufacturers it's a valuable function.

Many already do experience "life without audio dealers" - it would appear that the vast majority of people on A-gon recount how they do not have access to a good dealer, either due to geographic location, or lack of quality in the dealers that do exist.

I think the majority of us would welcome the opportunity to have a full-service, knowledgeable dealer with whom to develop an ongoing relationship with. If we take the somewhat idealized version of dealers that some recount, this dealer would know us, would know our system and preferences, and would save us time and money by being able to direct our attentions and $$ to the place they would most benefit our quest, even if, occassionally, that place wasn't a place that they profited from.

I don't understand why the industry seems to be retracting its business model instead of modifying it. It seems much harder now to get in-home auditions, to get trade-up policies, to, in some cases, even get a dealer's attention. Pricing, for at least the upper-end, seems to have no boundary, and the dealers are probably more dependent on the large margins than they've ever been.

I used to live in Lawrence, KS, home of Kief's. It's a college town, so they dealt with tire-kickers in spades. Even back then, they had a three-tiered pricing structure. There was full service - advice, home demo, full support, etc. - for a small discount off of retail. There was "partial service" - advice, home demo, 30-days direct support, after which you dealt with the manufacturer directly, for a larger discount off of retail. Then there was mail order - they'd get the unit in, but as they said - if it comes in two halves, you own both halves. This was for a competitive mail order price.

I don't know why some version of this type of tiered model couldn't work for a modern dealer, something that makes the service more explicitly paid for by the customer.

Mrtennis wrote:

"i see no evidence that trial and error without a dealer's assistance is any less effective than getting an opinion from an audio dealer.

"only the consumer can decide his or her preferences. how does one learn? through listening. from a position of ignorance, one listens and then decides that a certain presentation is what he or she likes."

Duke replies:

At least we agree that experience is necessary to deciding what one's preference is. Assuming the person has access to high-end audio dealerships, I maintain that visiting dealers and listening to what they have on display is usually the fastest and most efficient way to gain such experience. It is not as thorough as an in-home audition, but will narrow down the field of contenders for said in-home auditions.

Mrtennis, what do you propose as the alternative way to gain sufficient experience to decide which presentation is preferred?

I like Kthomas's post. I think we could all benefit from the presence of a high end B&M dealer who is capable of providing a service consistent with the needs of his customer and price his service accordingly. I would certainly welcome one. I have always hated buying over the internet unheard products and rarely ever buy anything used.
Unfortunately all of those that have existed in my area went broke some years ago or converted to AV and only support AV type products.

Now what would really be helpful, especially from all of those knowlegable proponents of B&M stores, would be to help assemble a list of such merchants so those of us who appreciate their services can find one. I live in a metropolitan area with a population excess of 1 million and have no shop I can recommend. Saddly, I have to travel over a hundred miles to even find a high end store, let alone one with which I could enjoy a good business relationship, with interesting (to me) product so I'm left with little alternative but to work with the internet, and I hate it!

I suspect that outside of LA, Chicago, Atlanta, and the Tri-State area on the East coast, the list will be veeery short.

Oh well.....

Ok guys...let me clear something up. I have only borrowed one piece of equipment from a dealer, and only after spending two months salary on some speakers and new cables that he was kind enough to give me a 10% discount on. He was a very nice guy who I still go and talk to when I visit my home town...as for where I live now, I have very little good to say about the "primary" high end dealer here. Last time I went to his shop, I went with a buddy who had a number of thousands of dollars burning a hole in his pocket and wanted my input on some equipment that he was interested in (note, I had helped him with some other purchases and he found me more knowledgeable than any dealer he had ever visited). He and I were totally put off by the dealer when he began arguing with me about something that I was obviously better schooled in than he. You would figure if a dealer wanted to make a sale (which my buddy was READY to do) he would have been much more collegial in his ability to make conversation with other people...That seems to not be the case with all but a few of the best dealers I know. One of my favorite dealers is based in my home town (different from the one I spoke of above) and has been operating throughout the region (and I am talking a number of states in the middle of this country). He has always been great to talk to and very into all the newest trends and pieces of equipment (which is neat for a “old” guy)...However the last time I went into his store one of his new helpers was working the floor and I was reminded again about how stuck up most of the people in this business are...He criticized my system and then he criticized me...but worst of all he criticized the music with which I wanted to demo some equipment. WHAT? This is my music which I like and I find to really show weakness or strength in a system. Perhaps it revealed too many of the obvious defects.

Personally, I don't consider myself to know very much about this hobby when I look at some of the others who have been doing this a long time, but I like to consider myself as being among the new generation of audiophile. I have never owned a record player (with the exception of the playschool one I had when I was a kid). And I can pretty much guarantee that I am at least 20 years younger than the median age of people interested in audio reproduction and equipment. As being such, I find myself much more at home in the digital realm than in the analogue. It is probably the product of being born around the same time that computers began their surge into people’s homes and being taught to use a computer at school.

As for my idea of having people come into my home or me go into their homes and listen…Brimac, I take offence to the idea that you would even suggest that I would steal equipment from a fellow audiophile. I have opened my home up to many people to come and take a listen and have had the favor returned to me by few. I do really think that one should hear equipment before one starts to spend money in the extreme amounts, but if you are planning on spending $10000 on a CD Player, or a pair of speakers or, or, or… what would be $300 on airfare to go hear and see it live. Additionally what would in the same case, shipping from a equipment lender and a rental fee much like the cable company be for a piece of equipment…Perhaps I should start an equipment library. It just seems to me that there would be the potential to get more exposure to much more equipment if there were something like this. (and have you ever looked at their used cable list….they are still making a profit on that price too, as well as the money they have made off of their rentals)…As for me now, I just look for good deals on a number of different brands of equipment, and purchase what ever I am interested in….If I like it great, if not, off it goes to some other interested party.

I guess that for some I do see the interest of having dealers around….and if it were not for a great dealer I would have never known what is capable from an audio system. But there is another part of me that wishes that my local dealers understood my appetite for different equipment and would do something to appease me. If I were able to purchase equipment somewhere from a dealer at a deep discount (lets say they get a 10% commission over dealer price) I would be happy to continue to spend upwards of $10,000 a year (which is about my current yearly rotating equipment budget, and will only increase as I get my career going) on equipment that they carry, but there is probably not a dealer out there that would allow this, and it is not even worth my time to try and do this when I have the possibility of purchasing things here on the GoN...

Finally because of the lack of quality customer service, the ability to do research on my own, and my own equipment fund for auditioning equipment, I will probably never set foot in any but the highest end dealers…but I still can’t see myself purchasing anything from one of them when there is perfectly good equipment available here and fractions of the cost.

Ben