2008 RMAF – – – all things analog.

Before I forget it, many thanks to Cello and Vetterone for making possible the wonderful evenings. I had a great time in the two-for-one room!!!

John

Hi John,

Great question.

How were you able to separate which components contributed to or detracted from the wonderful sound in that room?

Separating which component is contributing what in an unfamiliar system is indeed difficult, often impossible. No argument there.

That said, there are certain types of sonic damage that only a turntable (or tape deck) can produce. These are in the domain of “temporal correctness”, as Palasr put it just above. Pitch accuracy and stability on held notes is a function of platter rotational speed. Nothing else in an audio system damages pitch like a platter that can’t maintain speed accuracy and stability. The same is true of the harmonic relationships produced by natural instruments. LP’s can be chosen to test this, and I brought one such with us - specifically to test Win’s table.

No TT is perfect of course, but the Saskia came notably closer in this regard than any table we’ve heard. Except for the Saskia, every table we heard at RMAF exhibited audible errors in this area, some worse than others of course. (Dan_Ed joked in an email yesterday that he’s surprised we liked anything!) We walked out of several rooms just because we heard the table speed wavering, and that included tables costing north of $20K.

Prime example: any table that uses a rubber(y) drive belt will be speed inaccurate by definition, and the effect has always been audible to us in any system. Even the excellent, three-motor TW-Acoustic Raven suffers from this, though it’s better than most rubber belt drives and the slight softness of the speakers in that room helped mask it. The HRX in the Soundsmith room was worse. Hope that’s enough examples, I don’t want to trash anybody’s favorite table.

I have listened to Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge in several highly revealing systems. In all of these systems, the Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge didn’t appear to be mediocre but rather clearly outperformed the previous arms and cartridges. It wasn’t even close. I believe the Schroder arm is nothing but the best. And while the Voice is not the best cartridge I have ever listened to, cartridges that bettered it carried a much higher price tag. The Voice at its current price seems to be a steal.

When I said Winn’s table deserves top class components I meant it literally and without regard to price. Win was using Jonathon's Schroeder Model Two. Like you, I believe that arm is the best in its price class, but that doesn’t make it top class or “nothing but the best”, as you put it. Frank himself wouldn’t claim that or he’d never sell a Reference.

As for the Voice, we may have different sonic priorities.

To start with the Triplanar is a more capable arm than the Schroder, with all due respect.

Having spent years in the service sector repairing audio gear, I don't think I would agree that just because a turntable is belt drive that that means it will have a speed variation (at least, one that is measurable). So far the turntables with the least amount of measurable speed variation have either been belt or direct drive (and in the case of the latter, the table in question is the Technics SP-10).

I would point to weak motor issues as being a common problem with belt drive machines. Its something you cannot get away with in an idler drive, which otherwise tends to be a noisier drive system as the motor has greater acoustic coupling to the platter. If you put a strong enough motor on a belt drive machine, you can get W&F specs that are below measurability. I'm not a fan of servo-controlled systems as they tend to 'hunt' for the correct speed (a common problem with direct drive and many belt systems).

So while I agree that many belt drive machines have speed weaknesses, it is not accurate to say that they **all** do.

Good analysis Doug, and I know you are aware that quite a few temporal disturbances can come from electronics - different sorts of disturbances than can (in general) be attributed from mechanical sources (tape drives and turntables). I'm emphasizing this point mainly for those who might be glossing over your prose.

There is a type of timing disturbance that many do not perceive as speed stability, but rather as IM distortion. I'm sure you and Paul have heard this as you worked up the belt stiffness hierarchy. I once posted a link to a review of the Rockport Sirius turntable by the ever verbose Peter Moncrieff on the topic of IM distortion. Here's the link along with some introductory comments by me: http://www.galibierdesign.com/rants_06.html.

IM distortion can occur in a circuit as well. It's the usual place we think of it (as opposed to a drive system). These distortions can mask themselves as mechanical timing errors as well.

I'm coming over to yours and Raul's side of the fence with respect to iron. The Atma-Sphere OTL gear I had the privilege to live with at the show was a second such exposure that demonstrated how difficult it is to work a musical signal through some wire wrapped around a hunk iron. It can be done artfully (and you have every right to like it), but the effect is still there.

Phase (timing) relationships are very difficult to maintain throughout an audio system and power supply tuning is another area that can really destroy these subtle timing cues if the designer is not skilled. I've yet to be able to fully get a handle on distinguishing this causality reliably, but rather by comparison, component swapping, and extrapolation.

One of the more brilliant power supply designers is Dennis Fraker of Serious Stereo. Say what you will about the source components they have to lug to the show from the "wilds" of Livingston, MT, but his power supply design is nothing short of revelatory.

I've heard Dennis' 2A3 amp (sub 1 watt output) in the room of a customer, and have never heard such dynamic breadth and shadings in an amp with less than ca. 20W output when driving Azzolina bass cabinets (he uses the extraordinary Ales compression drivers up top). Of course, the overall efficiency is set by the bass modules, and I'm well familiar with these bass modules.

When a power supply starts to peter out, you experience a vague motion sickness type of effect as the presentation begins to congeal and waver in both time and space.

Don't underestimate cartridge matching (I know you don't) when you're talking about phase relationships and tempo. It's about a whole lot more than determining the resonant frequency. With each passing year, I'm coming to understand the relative strengths of the Triplanar and the Schroeder. I don't mean to leave out other fine arms in this discussion, but it is these two with which I have had the most experience.

Like Ralph, the evolution of my taste has taken my preference to the Triplanar (and by inference the great Micro Seiki and other arms of the past). I'm coming to see a philosophical junction between OTL's and what the Triplanar does so well, equally as I see an affinity between the best transformers and Schroeders. No one can tell you what to like ;-)

Still, it starts with the drive system, and I wish I had the opportunity to hear the Oswald Mill room. The nature of these shows is such that we are tightly bound to our rooms as exhibitors and must use our friends' ears as proxies. For this, I am most appreciative of your comments, and we seem to be hearing the same things.

This Summer, we began a drive system project as well, and we have been working with the same circuit designer with whom the boys from the Mill have been working. This controller has made it to our short list of candidates. I see real promise in these drive systems, but there's quite a bit of evaluation to be done and I'm not ready to toss out the legacy controller for perhaps 18-24 months ... if at all. Time will tell.

There's quite a bit of work to be done here, but I digress. These are great times for analog.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Dougdeacon et al...Another point I'd like to raise..Unless a record is flat, one hears pitch wavering coming from the tonearm traversing the undulations of the warp. Many tonearms' effective length is varied at the rise and fall of the cartridge. My experience is that the flattest records are warped to some degree, and therefore, the choice of a ring clamp, or vacuum table would be on my short list.