Spending $150.00 to retip a $250.00 cartridge seems a little nutty to me. Why not just wait and upgrade to a better cartridge? I had the $600.00 Grado and on certain records, it performed well above what one might expect for that price range. I started out with a Prestige and while it was free of listening fatigue, to me it sounded bloated. Audio Technica might be another good option.
A pitch too High!
Recently, I damaged the V2 MM cartridge of Clearaudio Concept Wood turntable, so had it changed with a Grado Prestige Blue. The VTF for V2 is 2.2g while Grado blue stands at 1.5g. I took someone’s help to fix this. He even made azimuth adjustments and it sounded fine. But I soon realised that the sound had become thinner, voice being the primary indicator and just before the stylus landed on the record, it skipped back a bit then hit the record. Sometimes the tonearm would skip all the way out of the record, backwards. I called the guy back, and he felt the VTF should be fixed to around 2g to avoid the backward skip. He did so and that problem was licked and it seemed the voice thinning issue had also vanished. But last night, I put on the first pressing of Aretha Franklin Amazing Grace, and all along I found her pitch way higher, it was all too high pitched and uncomfortable. Seemed the bass had gone missing a little. On my Boulder 866, I could immediately hear the difference when the track was played through Roon. It was not as high pitched, thin as it sounded on analogue. I intend to call the guy again but wanted to know from experts here as to what the issue could be.
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It’s not a re-tip! Leave your re-tip for MC. Re-tip is a drop of glue around new stylus tip on old cantilever (if the origina stylus tip is worn or damaged).
I'm talking about original replacement stylus. With MI/MM cartridges the stylus alone cost more than a cartridge body without stylus. Grado Black with the most expensive Grado XTZ stylus ($450 just for the stylus) will perform not like Grado Black anymore, it’s huge upgrade. There are $70 styli from Grado too, but 8MZ, TLZ and XTZ are the best styli for Grado Glack,Blue,Green... series. |
I am not familiar with Sonata, but I have the original Grado XTZ, it was Joseph Grado signature model, his best cartridge in the 80's (the price tag on the box is $750, not cheap in the 80's).
Genuine replacement styli are always different from those parts assembled together by re-tippers, you can't get Grado cantilever/stylus from SoundSmith. It's not the same "service" because replacement stylus for Grado is user replaceable, anyone can buy instal (very easy).
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chakster, the XTZ is a cartridge from the 80's, are you certain that Grado will have the XTZ stylus and cantilever in 2021? I had a Grace F12 and they are now defunct, so having the stylus replaced by Grace was impossible. But if you know Grado still has XTZ parts, then it's still an option. It just seems odd that Grado would still have XTZ cartridges or parts from nearly forty years ago. That being said, I have dealt with Grado where it pertains to repair and they honored a warranty that had expired by about a month. They are top notch when it comes to customer service. |
Once I got the HiFi News test record, I did everything all over again before I played the Hifi news record. Please do let me know what you guys feel. Turntable Balance: Test done with the paper disc that comes with the HiFi news record. To get this right, I had to unscrew the cartridge a little and adjust. https://imgur.com/hZt0lwi. (Shows alignment with the tonearm) Test done with Mofi Geo Disc: https://imgur.com/mmaSH43 (Shows alignment with the tonearm) @chakster I am pasting YouTube links of the results of the test record, let me know what you feel as this came highly recommended by you: Side 1 | Band 6: https://youtu.be/3xVdC9zIHhA Side 1 | Band 7: https://youtu.be/sG-SQGZz44w Side 1 | Band 8: https://youtu.be/n0pXWX43gZA Side 1 | Band 9: https://youtu.be/XyP5DFrpREo Side 2 | Band 2: https://youtu.be/655x0JJvnII Side 2 | Band 3: https://youtu.be/P5Yh89r5Yjc Side 2 | Band 4: https://youtu.be/-8A6YkmBT_E I felt everything was kosher, but then you are the experts. |
@mijostyn if you could look at the tests I have conducted after getting the HiFi News test record. Please do let me know if something is not right.
The video links may not be working above so here they are again: Side 1 | Band 6:
Side 1 | Band 7:
Side 1 | Band 8:
Side 1 | Band 9:
Side 2 | Band 2:
Side 2 | Band 3:
Side 2 | Band 4:
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So everyone knows where we are bands 6 - 9 are bias adjustment tracks +12 to +18 dB in 2 dB steps at 300 hz @terrible , You are only getting through the 12 dB track without distortion. But the key here is which channel is distorting and how much. The right channel is the groove wall to the outside of the record. The left channel is the groove to the inside. If the right channel is distorting more than the left you need to increase the antiskating force. If the left channel is distorting more you have to decrease it. Many people think this method over predicts antiskating and fall back on the slow drift test. Anyway , because I can't distinguish one channel form the other I can't tell online. The next tracks are lateral and vertical resonance. Lateral resonance is at 9 Hz and it is easy to see as the stylus pops right out of the groove. Vertical is at 13 Hz and well dampened. I suspect when you get your antiskating set well it won't pop out of the groove. From a resonance standpoint you are all set! Band 4 is tracking ability and you are distorting. Again I suspect because the antiskating is off. Which channel is distorting more will give you an idea whether you should add or subtract antiskating. |
@mijostyn Even I cannot tell, as the distortion seems to come from both the speakers. I am finding it hard to tell the difference. By the ‘slow drift test’ you mean the tone arm drifting towards the spindle after the track is over? Well that happens perfectly well currently. |
@terrible , No! You use your tonearm lift an gently lower the arm in between grooves in the run out section and watch which direction the tonearm drifts. The stylus is not in the groove! It will find a groove in a couple of seconds but that is more than enough time to determine what the arm is going to do. It should drift slowly, very slowly towards the spindle. If you have a record with a blank side like The Lumineers Cleopatra you can use that. This is the method Frank Schroder and Peter Ledermann recommend and it really is quite simple. |
@mijostyn I think I understand you. I'll record and put it up here soon. |
@goofyfoot How do you use the laser disc to test anti-skate? Is there a video or something out there? I could not find any. |
@terrible , Laser discs are smooth, no grooves. You can use them like a blank record. Laser discs are long out of production. Warning! Many people believe in adjusting Their antiskating so that the tonearm stays still on the blank record. This overestimates antiskating. The arm has to drift slowly towards the center towards the end of the record. This is not a vitally critical adjustment like VTF. There is no exact value because the amount of pull on the tonearm varies with multiple factors. It is a ball park adjustment. |
terrible, mijostyn is right. When putting the needle onto the center of the laser disc or blank record, adjust the anti skate so that the needle stays in place. Then just slightly adjust the anti skate so the the arm then drifts very slowly towards the spindle. However, I did exactly that and was getting distortion. So I found that by adjusting the anti skate so that the needle stayed in the center of the laser disc and without drift, that this gave me distortion free results. Do not set your anti skate this way until you've tried doing it as described above.
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That test is misleading. You have to watch very closely to be sure the stylus is skating on the vinyl and not following the groove. In your video it is clearly in the lead-out groove. Some test records have a blank side for this. Best is a 45 LP cut on one side only, leaving the other completely blank. All this side bias testing seems to me is missing the point. Because if the problem was side bias you would be hearing it from one speaker or the other, or more in one than the other. Like Mike said, right is outside groove wall away from the spindle, left is inside closer. If you are hearing it equally from both channels (or close enough you can't tell) then your side bias (anti-skate) is correct and it is something else. |
@terrible You can see that depending on the arm you might get different results. A person that I know that makes the Triplanar arm once told me that there really isn't a standard for anti-skate settings. So what works fine for one arm may not for another. So don't regard this comment is contradiction so much as the point that you might have to goof off with this setting to see what works best for you. |
There is no standard for anti-skate because of how it works. Skating forces are generated by drag on a overhung stylus. This is why tangential tracking arms have no side bias. Since they are tangential the only force is in line with the arm and there is zero skating force generated. Pivoted arms all generate skating forces because of the overhang. The amount of skating force varies constantly depending on how heavily modulated the groove is, how high the tracking force is, and how gracefully the cartridge traces the groove. The Soundmith Strain Gauge for example is famously low moving mass, low wear and a superb tracker. Sure enough I had to reduce anti-skate a lot when going from Koetsu to SG. Checking on a blank record is a pretty good starting point. Probably good enough to be one and done. But no one setting is ever perfect all the way across a record. All we can do is play listen adjust, play listen adjust. It is like setting sub levels, after a while you figure out what is a good all-around and then you are done. I have these same test records. Probably the same tracks are on them. Don't know. Never bothered. Play music. Works just fine.
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@mijostyn I just got Joni Mitchell - Live at Carnegie Hall, there is a blank side on the third record. I'll use that. Just reconfirming, since so many things are being said, do I put down the stylus on a rotating blank record at the centre or at the assumed run-out area? And then watch it drift slowly towards the spindle? For the laserdisc method, I found a video of an Indian guy, he used a CD. Though I don't have a blank disk, can I use one like this?:
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@mijostyn I have centred as much as I could. Please look at the pic below and let me know if there's an issue with TT balance: I have also done a test on a blank record:
And this is what Joni Mitchell sounds like currently on my system:
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@mijostyn There is no divot in the record. Those are prints and they are smooth. However, I’ll try again bringing it closer to the spindle, before the record dips. Yes, I did increase the anti-skate considerably from where I was previously; About 2 and a half rotations clockwise from the previous point. |
@mijostyn I have done all measurements again. For some strange reason, when I check the VTF, the value from the last time has changed, so I have to do it all over again. It’s anti-skate for 1.5g VTF that I have done. This is the slowest the arm is moving in, on the runout area of a recorded LP and the supposed runout area of a blank record. I made shifts in mm this time, so if I make it even slightly lesser the arm starts moving in faster than what you’ll see in the video. And if I take it 1 or 2mm more, the arm hovers a little at the same point for a little while and then moves in towards the spindle. Runout Area:
Blank Record
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@mijostyn I did this but it was really tough again. This turntable really sucks. Every time I get near right AS, the VTF would go off and vice versa. Finally, I am on 1.5g VTF, where this seems to be the best AS. An mm less of AS makes the tonearm travel faster; an mm more makes the tonearm linger and sometimes move in towards the spindle or sometimes move out. Basically it becomes very erratic.
Another matter i wanted to take advice on was the cartridge for SME12A. I have a friend coming in from New York and I wanted to make a purchase for some time to come. I was looking at Ortofon Windfeld TI but it is very expensive on US websites. On Analogue Seduction, UK, it will cost me £2850, inclusive of VAT and shipping to London. This is almost $1330 more than say the cost on the Cable Company website. What would be an equivalent cartridge I could get from the US?
For the current turntable I’ll probably get a Grado 8MZ or TLZ stylus, to put in the current cartridge as advised by @Chakster
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I don't want to get into it again with MC, but skating force occurs with any and all types of pivoted tonearms, those that overhang the spindle and those that underhang the spindle, as well. (So far, those are the only two types I know about, and underhung tonearms are much more rare than overhung. If you own one, you know about it.) It also occurs with or without headshell offset angle. I'll stop there. |
@terrible , if the vinyl is not perfectly flat the tonearm might wander back and forth a little. As long as the net motion is towards the spindle you are in business. If it does not head in one direction or the other dial a little less anti skate. As for what to put on the SME 12A, that could be a long list. The Windfeld Ti is a great cartridge. Some would even say as good as it gets. The Lyra Kleos would do very well. The Soundsmith Paua would be another. Grado Statement 3. Clearaudio Stradivari. Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua. My Sonic Lab Eminent EX and I am sure a lot of others.
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@mijostyn I am assuming you are still not satisfied with the AS of my turntable. I'll now fix it once I get the new stylus in hand. Also, thank you for the exhaustive list of cartridges for the 12A. I'll look into these. |
@mijostyn Some of the carts like Paua won't work well with my phono stage Boulder 508. Dynavector TKR seems to be on the edge of compliance, don't know whether I should go for it. However, the Lyra Kleos as I have been told would be a great pick for both the TT as well as Boulder 508. Just wanted your opinion on Hana Umami Red. Will probably pick one them. |
@lewm Impedence on the Boulder is fixed at 100 ohms and Paula loads at 470. |
@terrible , You would get Soundsmith's The Voice and use your MM input. The Voice is a great cartridge. Of the two you mention I would easily take the Kleos over the Hana. Between The Voice and the Kleos depends on the music. The Voice is going to be a better rocker but some might prefer the Kleos on classical and acoustic music. The Voice has a guarded cantilever, the Kleos sticks out in thin air, an easy target. The Voice has a much less expensive rebuild price and the manufacturer is easy to get to. The Voice is a high output Sussurro. Peter Ledermann told me the only reason it costs less is the market. People who buy high output cartridges are not prepared to spend as much as MC buyers. Peter insists that is the only reason. |
@mijostyn I could not figure the compliance of The Voice to 309. Is it compliant? Any reason you would prefer the Kleos over Hana? Hana seems to get glowing reviews on the interwebs. I’ll wait for your response and then pull the plug. Though, Soundsmith are generally not available for immediate order. |
@terrible , the Voice comes in two compliance versions mid and high. With the 309 I would go for the Mid compliance version. You might have to add a little weight. Soundsmith makes very nice graded cartridge screws. They come in a set of four different weights. You order the cartridge directly from Soundsmith on their web site. As far as I can tell The Voice is in stock. The Hana tracking is listed by them as 70 um. This is not as good as a $4000 cartridge should be. The Soundsmith will do an easy 80 um if not 90 and at a lighter VTF. The Kleos spec is not listed but I have used one and it tracks fine. I can easily recommend both the Kleos and the Soundsmith as I have used and listened to both. I have not used or heard the Hana. |
@mijostyn I went for the Voice. I got one at Absolute Sound, they told me its prefectly compatible to my tonearm as well as the 508 in MM. It is mid compliance. Where do I order the screws. |
@mijostyn I figured yesterday and ordered these too. Thank you much for all your help. I am going to give the Anti-Skate that little further nudge too. Though the sound right now is much better that it has been in all my attempts. However, one more noob question is, when do I realise that I need these screws? Is there something that will not sit well? |
@terrible , Yes, the tonearm's primary resonance frequency. You want it between 8 and 12 Hz. I shoot for between 8 and 10 Hz. Now, I have to spend more of your money. Get the Hi Fi News Analog Test LP. It has special resonance tracks for both lateral and vertical resonance. When you hit the resonance frequency the carrier tone will warble and if you look closely you will see your tonearm shaking. The Tracks are self explanatory. Lateral is more important. If it starts shaking above 12 Hz you need to add weight. If it shakes below 8 Hz you have to remove weight. |
@mijostyn That deed has already been done by @chakster . I bought the HiFi News Test LP. I even put up the test here. My Clearaudio was quite the failure on that. So we moved to 'allowing the cart to float towards the spindle' test. So yeah I have that. I'll test for when I get The Voice and put it on the SME 12A. |
@terrible , Great. Let us know how it works out. |
