Amplifier ideas with KEF Reference 1

@yyzsantabarbara 
As always, great information and advice. Thank you!

@audiotroy 
Thank you for the suggestion.

I logged into my Rendu and could not see a user name and pwd settings anywhere. So I imagine the Rendu expects to be found on the network.

I would contact either of the 2 listed below (both companies work together) and describe your setup and ask if a Rendu can work in your situation?

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/
or
https://www.sonore.us/index.html (also contains FIND MY UNIT)

If you click on the second link you will see a menu option called FIND MY UNIT. When I click that link, the web site located my Rendu on my private network. The Rendu guys wrote the SonicOrbitor operating system that runs on the Rendu’s so they have hooks into everything, including possibly passing a file with user name and pwd that can be read from some software hook on the SonicOrbitor operating system. This software is amazingly reliable and robust. I just love this companies products, especially for my office environment.

You could also pose a question on the Sonore sponsored Computer Audiophile forum,

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/forum/24-sonore-sponsored/

@keoliphant  I imagine you have a docking station or a network switch that can send packets to your logged on laptop. If you have a Network switch then the Sonore microRendu is a digital-2-digital converter. In this case converting the Ethernet-2-USB. This is the older technology from Sonore but likely perfect for you and what I use in my office, until I upgrade to something more complicated.

This will be miles ahead of your direct USB connection. I know because I had the same years ago before I went to the Rendu. A huge improvement in sound quality. I imagine that Sonore will have some Black Friday sales on the Rendu's.

https://www.sonore.us/index.html

Let me take a look at my setup (localhost web site on the Rendu) to see how you can do this. I need to take my kid to school first.

BTW - If you use ROON then the Rendu is ROON READY.

Add an Innuos Phonix reclocker to your laptop done.


Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ innuos dealers

So my problem with doing anything but direct from my laptop is that I’m in a flex office (Regus). In order to establish WiFi or Ethernet connection to a new network device, I need to provide my email and password from the device being activated to the network. Obviously, simple if you’re logging in with a laptop or a iPad. I dont see any ability to connect a streamer or the H590 to a system like this.

Please share ideas if you have them!

I just saw the post by the Audio Doctor, I was thinking the same thing on the USB from the MAC directly to the Hegel. I know Hegel has done some things to make that type of connection sound better than average. If I were to use USB I would go either the way Audio Doctor suggested or my preferred way (since I like my computer(s) in my office), a Sonore xxxxRendu.

@keoliphant  Thanks for the update on the 590. Today, I was in contact with KEF regarding speaker choice (for my downstairs) and I was thinking the 590 would be perfect if the speakers were to fit. Especially for other members of the family to use with it's ease of use. I am happy to hear that is also sounds great. 

BTW - for you Ethernet streaming folks on this thread. Have you guys heard about the EtherREGEN,  https://uptoneaudio.com/products/etherregen

It would be an interesting and cheap way to cleanup Ethernet noise. I don't think the Hegel 590 or 390 is ROON READY yet, but when they are, Ethernet streaming seems like something to try.

Good to hear that, Keoliphant you should consider upgrading to a real server and a higher end usb cable and your system will sound way better.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@audiotroy 
The thin treble comment was when the unit had about a dozen hours on it. The H590 is fully broken in and glorious. Great combo with Kef Reference 1’s. Tara Labs The Muse Speaker Cables, Wireworld power cable and USB from MacBook Pro.

We have mixed feelings on the Hegel, Keoliphant finds the treble a bit thin so we are wondering what is causing that? We had a demo earlier in the year of the Hegel 190 and the Nuprime STA 9 combo with the Nad C658 dac/preamp far outperformed it for the same money. 

The new 390 is supposed to sound great.

As per Darko's video, on the Hegel/Ref 1  although we often respect his opinions he liked the Kii speakers and we really don't like them at all so it is hard to tell if this combo sounds great or just better than the Kii or are there other similarly priced amplifiers that will offer the great bass of the Hegel amplifier with other qualities.

When we had the older Hegel series  we found that the Luxman and the Unision Research or Coda CS ib intergrated amplifiers were often chossen over the Hegel in our shootouts at the shop. 

At one time we had the Hegel, Luxman, Coda, Unison Reseach, Naim and Devialet integrated amplifiers all in the 

The other point is that the OP made is that Kef often shows with Hegel, that may be more of a corporate decision than the sonic one, many times these pairing occurs because of a corporate relationship rather than through rigorous testing of lots of other components.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

I ran LS50s with Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp and VX-5 Twenty amp, with Roon via Ethernet to a QX-5 digital hub and a DX-5 DSD disc player as sources.  I've since replaced the LS50s with Ref 1s.  The sound with LS50s or Ref 1s is excellent in our 14' X 19' room.  Only caveat is the amp runs a bit warm, but we're about a block from the beach in Montecito (AKA Santa Barbara). 

https://darko.audio/2019/10/a-short-film-about-the-hegel-h390-kef-reference-1/

I have a pair of cherry kef reference 1 on the way but am also scratching my head about amplification. 
Was planning tube driven process with my McIntosh 275 VI but now am worried about under powering them...

my listening room is small but should I be thinking about bi-amping?

thanks everyone!

I have a pair of cherry kef reference 1 on the way but am also scratching my head about amplification. 
Was planning tube driven process with my McIntosh 275 VI but now am worried about under powering them...

my listening room is small but should I be thinking about bi-amping?

thanks everyone!

@keoliphant My current setup is rather simple, KEF LS50 + PeachTree Nova 150. Prior to the treatments the sound stage was not good, the imaging was not focused and I would get ear fatigue when I listened to certain albums, such as the Smashing Pumpkins Siamese Dream.

I was not able to listen too loud because it was just louder bad sound. After I added the treatments everything improved. It was just amazing how good the LS50 + Peachtree NOVA 150 now sounded. I am now excited to upgrade this system soon because the acoustics are rather good in this room. I am likely going to get a Paradigm Persona 3F + Anthem STR preamp with ARC3 DSP + Anthem STR amp or something else.

After the room treatments I find that I can play music much loader though most of the time it is at a moderate to low levels. My prior bad sounding recording, Siamese Dream, sounds so good now. This is one disc that I want to crank up. I also keep my room door open which helps add volume to the room.

I was recently listening to Damien and Stephan Marley albums and prior to the treatments they were almost impossible to listen to due to the heavy reggae bass, however, after the treatments they are easily listenable.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7605

When I get the floor stander I will also get a audio rack and move that to the side and put only the amp between the speakers.

I was seriously considering the Hegel H590 in the past but I decided that I wanted DSP in my peamp because of the room limitations I would face with a floor stander. I also could not find a place to demo the Hegel even though I contacted Hegel a few times.

Keliophant, what cables and power conditoning are you using with your Hegel? Your treble thiness might be from your cabling, power, or room acoustics.

Are you using Roon? Have you tried converting PCM to DSD playback if the Hegel will allow for that?

Are you using a stock ethernet cable? We have found very noticable improvements with Wireworlds Etherent cables. 

Power cables also really matter. The new Audioquest line is really good.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

What is your current setup yyz and what prompted you to go for treatments? Do you listen at low, medium, or high volume? Most of my listening is at low volume but I crank it when no one is around!

I will try to get something posted soon.

That is great to hear that it is working out well for you. I know how much of a pain it is to setup a small room and the additional complexity of a desk. How about a photo, your room sounds very interesting.

My room is 12 x 11 x 9 and when I put in $700 of GIK acoustic treatments(9 panels) in my office the room was transformed. I have a photo on the virtual systems.

No demo. I figured KEF and Hegel join forces at  so many audio shows that it wouldn't be a system synergy risk.

Small office, no acoustical treatment. Been awhile since I measured but I figure approximately 10'x14'. KEF's bear on IsoAcoustics isolation stands that sit atop a custom standing desk (X-Desk, expensive but very worth it). The desk measures 3.5'x8'. The extra desk width and depth allows the KEF's to be on the desk with no crowding of my workspace  and provides some additional speaker distance/separation.

Bass is incredible. I'm a bass player so I demand tight, fast, deep bass. Very happy thus far.

Congrats, how are the KEF Reference 1 in your space (specifically the bass). Is the room acoustically treated?

Did you demo the Hegel or buy without a dem? It is hard to find it to demo in my area.

Forgot to mention - absolutely dead quiet!

Hegel H590 has arrived and is breaking in.

Initial impressions with KEF Reference 1's. Note that it's only been on for about 12 hours.

1. Solid midrange and powerful bass.
2. Streaming tidal and hearing far more depth/detail than ever before.
3. Treble seems a little thin (not harsh) so hoping break in will solve this.

I'm very please thus far and hoping break in will really make the system shine. Stay tuned.

Ken

Everest they chose to do convert DSD to PCM as part of their design. Not necessarily the best way to really play DSD and just because you do MQA doesnt' mean you can't play those files back at Quad Rate DSD we do exactly that on our $35k Light Hamonic Davinci and boy does it beat standard 24/192k MQA files. 

This is one of the reasons why we thiink you really didn't experience the T+A Dac 8 DSD the absolute magic with that Dac is running everything as Quad rate DSD, a DAC like the DAC 8 gives the listener total control to play back DSD as DSD or PCM as PCM.

Personally never have been too keen on digitizing vinyl playback.

We will see about getting a sample of the Black EX as this piece might be as stated the perfect NYC apartment rig. We first tried that with Devialet and the Devialet although very impressive in many areas, never was musical enough for us to fall in love with the Devialet sound.

The new Hegel might also be a very nice contender. We have so far found real magic with the KEF's with the Naim and T+A gear. 

Everest we have one up on you on that one we are one of the very few dealers in the country to display the entire KEF line, we have Ref 1, Ref 3, Ref 5, Blades, and our Ref 3 are in a full Atmos KEF theater which rocks. 

We know that you didn't carry the higher end T+A gear which is a pitty the HV gear is amazing you might just prefer it over the Black, however, the simplicity of the Black might be very appealing to some people. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ, Dealer for KEF, T+A, Naim, etc

As much as I said I was bowing out, I just want to chime in quick and thank audiotroy for being open minded about Bel Canto Black. I promise that you will not hear the digitization of analogue at all and their phono stage built in is very good as well. Bel Canto has displayed their Black gear with analogue front ends plenty of times and have always had great press about the sound quality. Bel Canto will do DSD64, but not natively. They opted for the MQA route and it does full MQA processing. You should definitely consider it for NYC. I'm not sure if there is a Bel Canto dealer in New York or not. I think it would be great for that market. Cheers.

Ken, you should listen to the Bel Canto Black gear it does seem very interesting, personally we aren't so keen on very expensive amplifiers that digitize analog and don't play DSD but the overall reviews and features are excellent, we may contact Bel Canto and see about becoming a dealer for the Black gear as it is perfect NYC rig. 

You may also want to check out the new Anthem STR gear which is less expensive and sounds extremely good, The amp and preamp/dac are $10k and offer the superb Anthem room correction system which may make an extraordinary difference in a small room with the Kef Ref 1. Anthem pictures the gear stacked so you may be able to save space that way. 

If you are ever on the East Coast for business, we have the Ref 1 in a room with many superb contentenders including the Naim Nova which is excellent with the Ref 1, we also have the Naim 272/250Dr which sound mindblowing on the Ref 1, we also have the Anthem Separates, and the T+A gear, we also have the Micromega M150 has room correction. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

keoliphant OP
I’ve decided to wait for the upcoming Hegel 590 integrated.

This looks better to drive those Kef’s low impedance/-phase angle with in the bass, good choice, and it’s linear not Class-D always better to me so far ("the future is not set").
More output devices and bigger power supply, bodes for better current delivery than the H360 can give, and hopefully will drive that bass of the Kef’s without becoming a bit of a tone control.

"The Hegal H590’s class A/B output is executed by 12 transistors per channel (4 more than the H360) to deliver a very specific 301wpc into 8 Ohms. Hegel’s feed-forward loop wrestles distortion in real time. The power supply inside the H590 is twice the size of that found in the H360"

Cheers George

Thought I’d add a quick update.  

I’ve decided to forget about wife acceptance factor and purchase the amp knowing that it’s staying in the office. 

The Bel Canto looks amazing. I’m fearful of betting on this technology without hearing it in person (no local dealers carry the clack or black ex lines). Thanks to yyzsantabarbara for getting me there!

Hegel is the safe route...was thinking the 360 would work nicely....1. Runs cool 2. Matches well with kef products. The downside - the amp doesn’t support mqa which I really want in my next system.  

I’ve  decided to wait for the upcoming Hegel 590 integrated. Should make the KEF Reference 1’s sing, the newest technology (just being released), should run cool, and the dac supports mqa. Preorder is underway....I’ll be sure to update once it’s received later this year!

Thanks to everybody that chimed in!

Ken

keoliphant OP29 posts06-29-2018 12:13pm@georgehifi  can you tell me how the Bel Canto ACI600 Black graph looks?

That's it above Ken, I just called it the Black.

Cheers George

@georgehifi  can you tell me how the Bel Canto ACI600 Black graph looks? It's a 25k integrated that's supposed to be very rich sounding. Wondering how the specs look when driving the reference 1's. 

Thanks George!

Ken

I still prefer linear amps without the switching frequency noise problems that all Class-D still have, if I needed a integrated linear I like the look of that GamuT Di150 LE I told keoliphant OP to listen to, also the Pass labs Int-250 and I like the well priced John Curl designed Parasound Halo Integrated. 

I haven’t heard the Black but I have heard the 600 mono’s and they are very good, and shows it in the bench tests as well.

1st graph: As far as driving speakers go, the Belcanto 600M’s will drive harder and stay flatter into low impedance speakers than the Belcanto Black can (graphs). Also the 600’s don’t droop in the lows and highs like the Black does. (same graph)

2nd graph: And not that it means much as they are both Stereophile AP filtered, the 600 also has the cleaner 10khz square wave.

3rd graph: And to cap it off the 600’s have lower distortion <-120db than the Black’s >-110db



Belcanto 600m:
https://www.stereophile.com/images/916BC600fig1.jpg
https://www.stereophile.com/images/916BC600fig2.jpg
https://www.stereophile.com/images/916BC600fig3.jpg


Belcanto Black:
https://www.stereophile.com/images/418BC600fig01.jpg
https://www.stereophile.com/images/418BC600fig03.jpg
https://www.stereophile.com/images/418BC600fig06.jpg


Cheers George

I wasn't talking about the DAC 8 DSD. I've also heard the T+A PA 2500 R with a different front end. A very nice sounding piece, but still, my definite preference to the bel canto black as it drives difficult speakers better, sounds great and is much quieter in operation. I'm the only one that has apparently heard both. Anyways, I'm not interested in this back and forth any more as it serves no purpose. It's just my opinion versus yours and we'll agree to disagree. It's all good. I'm bowing out now.  Cheers

Insteresting finding George, we did listen to the older Bel Cantos.
However we have listened to numerous Hypex, and Ncore amps including a well respected $11k one and so far we havent found a single one yet that we would want to listen to long term, as well as sell. If you actually listen to these amps they are all clean but dont posses any magic in the midrange.

As per Everest your findings on the T plus A are suspect when you  have to match an integrated amp with a dac and cabling and you dont even know how to run a Dac 8 when all over Audiostreams review as well as Computer Audiophiles column on that Dac have all said that the Dac 8 sounds amazing in Quad Rate Dsd which requires a fast computer running Jriver

You run your dac 8 on a Melco which does not allow you to do upconversion or cross-convertsion  that, so your findings are somewhat suspect.

The Dac 8 sounds good on 16/44 but the real magic is running Quad rate DSD and there are very few files that are actually produced at this sampling level so Jriver processing is required.

Everest we would be more than happy to run one of our setups vs one of yours anyday if the Bel Canto Black is better we would sell it the fact that it digitizes analog signals and does not support native DSD is a major turn off.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

georgehifi, I completely agree that the Bel Canto REF600M sound nothing like Icepower. By the way, I certainly don't remember seeing any review of the 600M by Clement Perry. audiotroy may be confusing with an older model. The 600M are a Ncore implementation that is customized by Bel Canto. 

And then, on top of that any of the Bel Canto Black products take it to another level and is much higher end than their e.one series. Plus, with Bel Canto Black, such as the integrated amps, you also get a superb DAC and firmware updates too via Ethernet. Their Ethernet implementation is outstanding and makes for a simple solution for the customer that also sounds incredible. Plus, I find the Bel Canto Black EX integrated to be just slightly warm of neutral, analogue sounding, detailed, very powerful and musically involving. Nothing has driven the ATC SCM40's in my room to their level of current performance as the Bel Canto Black EX integrated. The T+A PA 2500R before that did a pretty good job, as it is a nice piece, but not in the league of the Bel Canto Black EX. Others that have heard both in this system completely agree.

Georgehifi I dont know what you look for you certaintly don't listen to these products.

You assume a lot there sunshine, and the  Bel-Canto Ref 600M sound nothing like Icepower amps, they are one of the finest Class-D's I "have" ever heard, and they nail the Nuforce Ref 9SE V3 which I've also had for a couple of months.
  I could almost live with the Belcanto 600M's, saying that I much prefer linear amps.

Cheers George

Georgehifi I dont know what you look for you certaintly don't listen to these products.

We tested the Bel Canto Ref 600M amplfiers on a number of speakers when our neighbor Clement Perry of Stereotimes was reviewing these amps. The Ref 600 sounded like an Ice based digital amplifier, they were impressive with tight bass and great dyanmics, they sounded thin in the midrange and were not involving, a set of the Nuforce Ref 9SE V3 sounded way better to our ears.

We were a Luxman dealer and the Luxman stuff sounded excellent we were selling the Unison Research Unico 50 a $5k tube/solid state hybrid which tended to sound even warmer and more musical on most of our loudspeakers.

In fact you can see in our showroom tour all the integrated amplifiers we had on display at the time which included Hegel, Luxman, Coda, Norma, Naim, Devialet, Electrocompaniet, and a few others, they all sounded different on the same loudspeakers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4

We show the Ref Ones in a 18 by 14 foot room and they sound fantastic.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

keoliphant OP28 posts06-28-2018 1:20am@georgehifi thanks for the additional suggestions... The load plotting analysis is above my pay grade! Do you know if the Gamut runs cool? That’s paramount for this office setup.

To make sure ask the retailer to have it switch on,, at idle (no music) for an hour before you get there, and feel it. In a small office this should be around the temperature in will be running at.

Looking at the size and density of the heatsinks, should be warm at idle, or low to medium levels, hotter if it’s loud for a period of time.
It say in the review it’s total bias is 14w class-A, 7w per channel this should be warm to the touch. In the bench test when it was run for 1hr with continuous sine wave (RMS) at 1/3 power it got hot, but any linear amp will do this.

Cheers George

@georgehifi thanks for the additional suggestions... The load plotting analysis is above my pay grade! Do you know if the Gamut runs cool? That's paramount for this office setup. 

@georgehifi The Benchmark AHB2 is not an integrated. It is an amp only.  I use it in my office.

@audiotroy Is the 14 x 10 room adequate for the KEF Ref 1? The room seems a little small to me.

Here are a few integrates that have simulated easy load tests done by Stereophile most don’t become tone controls that you and others have mentioned.

Belcanto Ref600 good
https://www.stereophile.com/images/916BC600fig1.jpg

Lux L509X good
https://www.stereophile.com/images/518L509fig01.jpg

BelCanto Black good (fine plot)
https://www.stereophile.com/images/615BCBfig12.jpg

This T&A V10, didn’t fair too good
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/V10FIG01.jpg

Ayre AX-5 good (much finer plots)
https://www.stereophile.com/images/713AX5fig01.jpg

Peachtree Nova 300 was good but droops up high.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/517PN300fig01.jpg

Benchmark AHB2 also good (fine graduation plots)
https://www.stereophile.com/images/1115BAHB2fig01.jpg

Cheers George

I also don’t think that Stereophile uses simulated measurements any more either.

Really?? taken just three days ago.
Again the wavy one is into an easy simulated Kantor load.
And this is what you’ll hear, bad dips at 200hz and 5khz, and peaks at 60hz, 2khz and 10khz.
In other words this amp will sound very coloured (like it’s been EQ’d), because it’s not flat even into an easy speaker load.

https://www.stereophile.com/images/718BP21fig01.jpg
Fig.1 BorderPatrol P21 EXD, 8 ohm tap, frequency response at 2.83V into: "simulated loudspeaker load" (gray, wavy trace).


keoliphant seeing your budget is up to $15k a quick search I would recommend this $12k GamuT Di150 LE integrated amplifier as it gives good current ability and remains quite flat with the simulated load and will also stay reasonably flat with the Kef’s load.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/417Gam150fig01.jpg

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gamut-di150-le-integrated-amplifier



Cheers George

Thanks for the naim suggestion caphill and audio doctor. Would you advise this setup over a supernait integrated?

Georgehifi,

Your posts speak of someone with theoritical knowledge.  Your example of a sample simulated load with Kantor's circuit is somewhat flawed as they also built in a zobel network into the load and a simlulated load may not take into accout the affects that the speaker cable would add to the load which is going to then affect those measurements as well. 

I also don't think that Stereophile uses simulated measurements any more either. 

I rember reading one of your posts on a loudspeaker that you said wouldn't sound good on anything other than a particular high powered solid state and yet we got fantastic results with a low powered tube amp.

So there is theoritical knowledge vs practical knowelege and experience which is what we do we experiment with different amplifiers on a set of speakers till we create the sound we find desirable. 

As per Caphill he is very correct the Naim Nova is fantastic it is practical, compact, warm and punchy, cool running with a fantastic app and it sounds wondeful on the Ref 1 a perfect office system, we show this very same combination in our shop the Naim's slightly warm rich presentation coupled with its punchy dynamic drive makes for a very musical engaging system. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@keoliphant OP
Since this is for your somewhat small office (10x14) imo the Naim Unity Nova would be your best choice and it will sound good on the KEF. At $7500 it’s a steal and it is all-in-one box solution and does not run hot like your PS Audio BHK monoblock amps. The sound quality is spectacular very musical smooth and refined. Comes equipped with very good quality streamer/DAC.

You take a very scientific approach our approach is via actual listening

Sorry, but I take both. As they are equally important.
And anyone recommending any amp should do also.

Hoping to learn more.

You may get an amp that behaves like a tone control into the Kef's difficult load instead of doing what amps should do, "maintaining a flat frequency response regardless of load variations".
Like this one, the wavy top line is what it’s frequency response is like into an easy "simulated Kantor" speaker load, far from flat!, it will be even worse with the Kef’s as they are harder to drive than the Kantors, this is what behaving like a tone control is meant.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/V10FIG02.jpg


Cheers George

Georgehifi,

It isn't just a matter of current, it is a matter of voicing. Most modern amplifiers will have 0 problem pushing power into most impedances.

You take a very scientific approach our approach is via actual listening and considering we sell almost every KEF including the Blade, Ref One, Ref Three, Ref Five, Q, R, Series T, Series, Wireless, we know how and what works with a Kef.

If you look at two capable amplifiers into a load unless that speaker is pushing the stuffings out of the amplifier, most amplifers will sound great the difference is how the particular pairing will sound when used together. 

We did a similar demo today on the Elac Adante monitors, first using a 60watt Nad and then a 40 Watt Naim Atom. of course the $3.5k Naim Atom killed the $1,400.00 NAD and both amplfiers produced more than enough volume the difference was  the clarity of the Naim and the Naim's much tighter fuller bass and supeior macro dynamics, there was 0 strain with either amplifier.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

keoliphant OP

These Kefs are not an easy load in the bass, hence some saying they are bright sounding, because amps can’t drive the bass hard enough.

Like I said before, and I have no skin in this like some others, before you buy the wrong amp to do the job or even spend too much.
Ask here or get someone if you don’t know what your looking at, to analyse these two graphs for impedance and phase of these Kefs you have, especially in the bass 50hz-200hz to give you an idea of what amp to buy.
https://www.fidelity-magazin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/1-KEF-Reference-1-Impedanz.jpg

https://www.fidelity-magazin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2-KEF-Reference-1-elektrische-Phase-1024x...

Cheers George

Caphill, we were a Devialet dealer and the sound quality just was never there, in some ways the Devialet was extraordinary, no noise, deep bass, big soundstage, the problem was always the product never had the musicallity that drew you into the experiece, the T+A was far superior when we tried a large list of amps/preamp combos on our Polymer Loudspeakers and then the Paradigm Personas, the T+A gear sounded better than the $60K CJ Art and Gat, the Manley Labs Snappers, the Electrcompaniet AW 400, the Devialet D400 Monoblocks, the Thrax gear, and finally the Chord SPM 1400 monoblocks and CPM 5000 preamp.

Also in terms of the Bel Canto being better than the T+A 2500R Dac 8 DSD combination, Everest did not setup the Dac 8 correctly you need to be running Roon or Jriver, and converting to Double rate or Quad Rate DSD which opens up the sound considerably, which is one reason we don't carry the Melco.  PCM on the Dac 8 is good, upsampled is way better and in the case of the Dac 8 the real magic is running the higher rate DSD which really creates a spooky 3d soundstage and a very analog like presentation.

The Bel Canto maybe fantastic but you should also be aware it does have its limitiations, one of which is everything is digitized including Analog signals, and two everything is converted to PCM.

We personally find that for certain products DSD sounds much more like analog but it does depend on the product.

So we would recommend that you compare the Bel Canto vs other similar packages and let the chips fly. 

Another thing to consider is how upgradable is the Bel Canto? 

We did check out the Bel Canto Black and it does seem like a very interesting piece, with the notable limitations as noted. 

The Naim Nova is a fantastic piece for the Kef Ref ones, and the upgraded NAC 272/250Dr is really impressive if you are looking for a more minimilist two box solution of amp with dac/preamp/streamer that will outperform the Nova,  Caphill is right on the money with the Nova, it is excellent and the package is great with the Ref Ones.

Whatever you choose look for a warm fuller sounding amp for the Ref Ones have very low levels of coloration and can benefit from a warmer sounding amplifier. 


Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@keoliphant
Classe isn’t out of business. B&W Group, which previously owned Classe, has recently sold Classe off to Sound United Group in January 2018.
Sound United Group also owns Denon, Marantz, Definitive Technology, Polk Audio, Boston Acoustics & Heos. 
So, Classe now is owned by Sound United. The brand has been revived.

Dave Neauber, who has been with Classe and has been a president of Classe Audio since B&W Group acquired Classe in 2001, will keep leading the company under a new ownership now. They are re-opening or are already re-opened as we speak now their Montreal, Canada facility under a new ownership Sound United.
True that B&W Group shut down Classe’s headquarter facility in Montreal last Oct 2017 and all employees were laid off.
But now Dave Neaubet is gathering and re-grouping all Classe’s designers and engineers that were laid off by B&W last year for their Montreal facility. And I was told that future Classe products will be made in Sound United’s own manufacturing facility in Japan but will still be designed and engineered in Montreal, Canada.

So you won’t have to worry about Classe.
It’s been revived and is now owned by Sound United Group.

I do own multiple Classe gears in my dedicated home theater room : Classe SSP 800 AV preamp surround processor, Classe CAM 600 monoblock amps (pair) for my front B&W 800 D3 speakers, Classe CAM 300 monoblock amp (single) for my center speaker (B&W HTML1 D3), Classe CA-5300 five-channel amp for my surround speakers (B&W 804 D3 & 805 D3).

I think Devialet will be your best solution. It is all-on-one solution. The price range is between $10k+ to $40k+.
You will have to give a listen. Spectacular sounding products and worth a try.

Linn also makes lower end models and cheaper than the Klimax line. I would consider a new Linn Akurate DS (with Katalyst DAC architecture) and the Akurate stereo power amp.
I think the new Akurate DS retails for around $15k++. Not sure how much the Akurate power amp is. Or you can get the previous model Akurate DS (non Katalyst DAC architecture), which can be had at discounted nowadays for way under $10k. All Linn DS (Klimax, Akurate & Majik) come equipped with volume control (preamp). You will have to use their volume control. Linn DS are pretty much digital streamer/DAC/preamp in one single chassis. Linn does not make dedicated analog stereo linestage preamps any longer. They used to in the past.

Or since this is only for your small office environment I would just get the Naim Unity Nova ($7500). It is all-in-one solution.
It is a streamer/DAC/integrated amp all in a single chassis. Sounded very good very musical. I’ve heard it paired with Focal Sopra 2 speakers recently at my local dealer and they sounded fantastic. Very musical, refined, smooth with excellent PRAT.
Highly recommended.

@caphill: thanks for the detailed thoughts. My PS Audio Directstream and BHK Signature preamp are sold...BHK monoblocks still up for sale so I'm really thinking integrated or matching pre/dac + power (like bel canto ex).

I also fear purchasing from a manufacturer that's out of business (Classe)..... Of course no guarantees that bel canto's staying around forever. 

Hadn't considered the Devaliet. Might be worth a listen. 

The Linn gear is out of my tax bracket!