Analog Upgrade Suggestions Welcome
Mark: This weekend I listened to a Schroder Reference Tonearm. In my lifetime I believe that I have listened to tens of dozens tonearm combos-Nothing I have ever experienced sounded as natural , completely free of mechanical artifacts. The Schroder arms cost about what a used car costs but nothing in analog compairs to them. charlie |
Raul, Your posts of pertinent information can be helpful. Your personal attacks are not. Keep posting pertinent information or posing reasonably phrased questions that invite dialog, and I have no quibble with your participation. That has consistently been my point. You've consistently missed that point in your effort to disparage and belittle others. I do note that the last several posts I've seen from you have not included personally derogatory or disparaging remarks. I welcome this and hope it continues. . |
Cello: The next post was your answer with any reason ( like your attack in this thread ). You post it only for attacking and for no other reason, your last sentence speak a lot of who you are. . " I was there (with Doug) and the difference in the Schroeder was obvious and easy to hear. One would not need much more than listening to a few minutes of different types of music to be able to discern that the Schroeder was head and shoulders above and in another universe than the other tonearms. . I suggest you read more and talk less and spare us your wisdom for a while. . Ahhhh... now I feel better.""". Cello."""""" Rushton: *****" do really know what are you talking about ?, I think you are an " inexpert " in this area, too. Please try to learn about. Where do you left " the book ".***** Here I explain this behavior: Doug ( like TWL ) is a very active member on this forum and always is trying to help in differents areas of audio. I think that for everyone that are so " active " the best is that that people ( Doug ) try to have always the " card at hand " ( know-how of what is talking about ) to really help to the people that is loking for an answer. On the subject of his 803 speakers ( like I put on my answer ) a few months ago ( in another thread ) another member and I explain to Doug why he ( and his friend ) can't hear a 16Hz frecuency ( it was not 20Hz ) in his audio system and that the frecuency response ( in room ) of his speakers start maybe at 50Hz. Now, he insist first: " flat response " and second:" +,- 4db at 34Hz ". ( Doug: the Nautilus 800 is 37 +,- 2db at Lab ). Don't you think he have to learn about?, beacuse he is doing statements on that wrong information. I think that many of us in this forum want that the forum go to " growing up " and one of the target is to give answers that have not only quality but that are based on true facts and not " illusions ". The people, like Doug, that are very active in this forum have a serious responsibility with all the forum members ( at least this is the way I look ) and they have to take it with a real know-how every time they " shot " ( live experience ). Now, if you think that everyone in this forum ( Doug, TWL, Rusthon, ,...) can post " only for post ", with any care of what is posting then ask you: what kind of forum will be Audiogon? or which kind of forum do you want or do you deserve?. I'm here and I will continue to post here because everyone of us can learn many things on what we really care and love: " accurate music reproduction through ours home audio systems ". Regards and always enjoy the music. Raul. |
Cello, I apprciate your response. But I think you inadvertently did something that contributes to a lot of the discord on this site. You assumed that I am not familiar with Rauls' previous comments. Sometimes Raul deserves to be slammed. A fact that I previoulsy alluded on this site in a different thread.(Do hsopital grade ac outlets make a difference?). I also think the person who thought it was his place to tell me "to go away" was way out of line. Moreover, imediately prior to making my post I scanned Rauls' comments. I can certainly see why he is on the hot seat, I still beleive that he should be allowed to post his opinion. People can take it for what it is worth. Or ignore it all together. |
. Gregadd, . It is quite nice of you to try to see the positive side of Raul's behavior. . What I think you may be missing here is the long history of his rudeness and mean spirited statement. . Please read through all of Raul's comments on all of his threads and in their entirety and you might sing a different tune. . |
I guess someone should say something in Rauls' defense. When I made my first statement on the audiogon site regarding vta, someone thought they had the authority to tell me to go away. While I think it is everyones right to correct obvious mistatements of fact and scientific principles, we should stay from ad hominem attacks. Audio is an inexact science. More importantly we are all amatures. I would say 90% of what is said on this site is opinion. Almost all of what I have read during my short stay on this site, is a good faith attempt by the writer to asisst others in getting the most out of thier existing or future systems. Predictably saying things like solid states sucks,you can't hear the difference between cheap wire and expensive cables,etc. is going to evoke a strong response. For example at one time the Denon 103 was considered SOTA. That was 15 -20 yrs ago. It has almost surely been surpassed by todays modern mc cartridges. They are those who still find it has value especially at a price point or with particular components. However, if someone has invested thier money or credibilty in public on a particular product, calling it garbage will be offensive even if true. Accusing someone of delibeately mistating the facts will also stir up the hornets nest. I also think some have made unnecessary attacks on Raul. Raul, for my money I hope you hang around and I will enjoy the music. Now go eat turkey and fight with the relatives you have not seen all year. |
. Ok Raul, . Off come the gloves. You are just unbelievable. How many people have to tell you that your behavior is unacceptable before it gets through your thick skull. . You have no place on this thread or any other Audiogon forum. . You tell people what they can and cannot hear. My sense is that you are audiotorally challenged and don't appreciate that people can hear what God was not kind enough to share with you. . You are rude, ignorant of common social graces (in any language), pompous, an articulate incompetent, not able to carry on a logical and polite debate, and a royal pain in our collective Asses. Please don't address any of us as friends (anyone can offer here to be Rauls friend and correct me) as you do not treat people in a hospitable or decent way. Please do not use your English language limitations again for your rude missives. . As a final thought ..Raul, please shove your opinions where the sun fails to reach and leave us all alone. . |
Raul, Alright. I'll give it one more attempt. I tried once before in an email we exchanged, but that obviously had no meaning for you. All of us regularly offer disagreement with something someone else has posted, and sometimes we all point out what we think is an error in what someone else has said. The point is to have a conversation here, and to exhange information and opinions so we all learn from each other. But, you approach this differently. You are not just pointing out "wrong facts" as you so disingenuously state. Your posts are always stated in absolute terms like an oracle pronouncing "THE TRUTH FROM ON HIGH." It's insulting to the intelligence of the rest of the people participating here. More to the problem, the language and the tone you choose to use are confrontational, not constructive and are frequently presented as a personal attack. Consider your last post above where you include the following TOTALLY UNNECESSARY personal attacks: do really know what are you talking about ?, I think you are an " inexpert " in this area, too. Please try to learn about. Where do you left " the book ".These comments are unnecessary, they don't add to a constructive conversation, they are demeaning of the person to whom they are addressed, they are personal attacks, and (to me) they are offensive. Your posts are full of this nonsense. My ask of you is: "Quit it." You can have a conversation and point out errors without the personal attacks. If you can't figure this out, my recommendation to you is that you should stop posting for several months, reflect on things and then come back and try again after that time has passed. . |
Hi Rushton: I only show wrong facts that Doug himself use like arguments on differents subjects. Do you think this is an attack ?, What do you propose?: that Doug continue to give wrong facts for to explain any subject and nobody do nothing about?. It is strange, many of you always defend to people like Doug, TWL and others many times, like now, where they expose on false facts. I think this behavior does not help to anyone, what do you think about? My point of view is that everyone in this forum need to help to everyone: WITH TRUE FACTS. Do you agree?, if not: then tell me what is all about?. Regards and always enjoy the music. Raul. |
Doug, I agree that analog equipment has improved, however, the issues created by too low a resonant frequency do not go away with modern equipment. The issues presented in the article deal entirely with the tonearm, cartridge, and record. As the article states, Wow and flutter, distortion, mistracking, and rumble can be caused entirely as the result of too low a resonant frequency. I have read some other posts that mention a lower resonant frequency enhances bass response, but this could just be the result of bass imtermodulation, as mentioned in the article. As far as your experience with changing counterweights, I believe that this type of activity will change resonant frequency less than a hertz, which I do not view as a comprehensive test. So, I believe that you hear a difference with higher resonant frequency combinations, but perhaps it is the absence of bass intermodulation that you are hearing! I have an open mind on the subject. At any rate, thanks for sharing your experience. I admire the energy and enthusiasm you have for analog. |
Raoul, why don't you contribute your knowledge in the Vinyl Asylum? It's *different* there... http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/ I'm sure your style will be well taken... Regards and enjoy the music. *** |
Raul, Your continuing personal attacks on Doug are tiresome, and the longer they continue, the more offensive it all becomes. I wish you would move past this one-upmanship game you're playing; all this looks like is your pique over not being crowned the Audiogon analog guru. In the process of playing this interminable game, it seems to me that you are alienating everyone who regularly posts here. You could become a valued contributor, instead you are making yourself a person many wish to avoid. Surely this can't be your intended outcome? (rhetorical question) And I'm trying to "enjoy the music", but your trite little closing (given the offensive content of your posts) is ruining it for me every time I see it now. . |
Dear Doug: The B&W specs are at Lab stage. The frecuency response of your loudspeakers in your room or another one it is always worst really worst. That's why I told you that your info about are only " illusions ": +,- 4db at 33Hz? in room?, do really know what are you talking about ?, I think you are an " inexpert " in this area, too. I repeat again: some one told you that your speakers don't go lowest than 50Hz in a room. In that ocasion I remember your statement that you can hear 20Hz in your 803 speakers, this one was an inaccuracy, too? Please try to learn about. Where do you left " the book ". Regards and always enjoy the music. Raul. |
Msiebers, I believe that article was more valid at the time it was presented than it is today, due to changes in the analog playback environment. Only a few turntables that existed in 1977 could match today's better decks for lack of rumble, wow, flutter, etc. Those noise sources were common in many 1970's and older decks (including all of mine!) so isolation from them was critical. Those noise sources barely exist on today's decent rigs. The problems have changed, for the better of course, so the solutions should change to match them. Today the most significant vibration sources are footfalls and warps, which mostly fall well below 8Hz, and LF bass information recorded on the record, which can go as low as 16Hz or so on some records. A resonance frequency as high as 18Hz would have a high probability of interacting with music information. Good job pointing up that article. Reflecting on it shows how much progress analog playback has made in recent decades. P.S. regarding Raul's concern The B&W spec for the N803's is -3db @ 35Hz and -6db @ 28Hz. My loose recollection that they go flat to 33 was an overstatement by approximately 4db. Sorry for the inaccuracy. Obviously they do produce useful, audible information into the bottom half-octave, which is consistent with the audibility of LF bass interference. No doubt speakers which go lower would reveal even more, as you originally stated. |
Doug, "Audible Effects of Mechanical Resonance in Turntables" is the name of a paper published by Poul Ladegaard at the 1977 AES convention. It is available for download at www.vinylengine.com --> Forum --> Members download area Miscellaneous, then select "Audible effects of mechanical resonances in turntables". According to the paper, too low a resonant frequency contributes to: excessive rumble, wow and flutter, tracking force variation, bass intermodulation distortion, and increased susceptibility to feedback. The conclusion of the paper is to recommend resonant frequency in the range of 15-18 Hz. |
Dear friends: Here it is some info about the importance of matching the tonearm/cartridge, this info comes from a cartridge manufacturer: " Hi Raul,, The compliance from our cartridges is not relevant, if you have a good arm and turntable , you can track 300 µmm, with this cartridge so if you calculate and project this to compliance you get 70 but nobody believe that so, the important thing is the arm can work with cartridges from 10 Gr mass and more, Second if you build in the cartridge set in full parallel to the record, first after ( with 180 our 200 Gr vinyl ) you listen to voice on a record and put the arm a little higher no lower settings and adjust you have the most air our room around the voice that play, that is the point you leave it normal is this 1 or 2mm higher ( NO MORE ). Regards. Jan. ". All days there are something to learn in audio, other than " the book ", the name of the game: " LIVE EXPERIENCE ", don't forget it. Doug, as you know some one in this forum prove to you that your speakers are not only flat to 33Hz, but with serious difficult aproach only between 50-60Hz ( maybe less with your equalizers ), this is why you can't have a " live experience " on that subject and why I call you: inexpert, now: can you understand the whole thing? Regards and always enjoy the music. Raul. |
Oh, forget it, Raul. You impressions are probably just as bogus as your demeanor, anyway. You seem to end so many posts with "Regards and enjoy the music", yet you show little or no regard for the folks on this site and do even less to further their enjoyment of the music. Sad, really. I've come to beleive that PA and Cello are correct, you truly need to seek help. |
Msiebers, Sorry if I came on strong. Like you, I had no desire to offend. Providing the context for your Shelter 501 experience was valuable of course, as long as Mark doesn't necessarily expect the same on a different arm. IME the character of a cartridge can change substantially depending on the arm it's used on. That's all. I have been following the discussions of resonant frequency on the vinyl engine and AA by headshell/hybris. He has stated several times that a higher resonant frequency is desirable, and that has matched my own limited experience.I haven't seen that conversation. I'll look it up, thanks for the reference. What is the bass frequency that is affected ? If it is the low bass (20-40 Hz), that would explain why many would not hear the impact, since most systems Iincluding my own) do not reproduce this range.The frequencies affected are indeed in the lower bass, so your supposition seems correct. My speakers are only flat to 33Hz, though they do produce some useful energy below that in the usual rolling off way. Presumably the lower one's system goes the more this will matter. The experiences that lead me to prefer a resonance frequency around 10-11Hz were based on altering the effective mass of my own arms, a TriPlanar and an OL Silver. On the TP this is especially easy to do, depending on the cartridge, because the arm comes with three different counterweights. (Some other arms like Moerch have a similar facility.) Unless one has a very heavy or very light cartridge, it's normally possible to balance it and apply VTF using either of two weights. Obviously this slightly alters the effective mass and resonance frequencies. IME with two Shelter 901's and three different ZYX R1000 series carts, a resonance frequency around 10 provides slightly better bass. With the ZYX's it's fairly subtle. With the 901's it was more obvious. I feel that tracking improves with a higher resonant frequency.I couldn't detect any tracking ability changes. The ZYX's always tracked and traced superbly when properly set up. The Shelter's didn't do as well regardless of setup. Of course other combinations may well act differently. Yours obviously does. If very LF energy inputs (warps, footfalls, etc.) are causing tracking problems then tuning the arm/cart resonance a bit higher to avoid them could be an effective compromise solution. (Oy! Everything in vinyl is a big compromise. What a goofy way to reproduce music!) |
What, Raul? You said the 103R was a garbage cartridge. I asked you nicely what your impressions are that would make you say that when many others have said they like its performance. I'm not sure I've ever read ANYONE else who said it was bad. Wondering why you think so. What possible difference could it make what MY ssytem consists of when asking you to discuss your impressions of the 103R. If all that's wasting your time, well, you won't find me feeling sorry for you. Once again you are being not only arbitrary, but rude, too. |
I did the the III to IV and also own a 309. Even w/ occasional use, 15 yrs is quite a long time. Um, have the headshell lead connections been cleaned during that time? --grin-- Cart is a Clearaudio V. Wood, not tweaky weird about setup, reasonably tough and durable - within limits. I've eliminated the word 'best' from my audio vocab, and for carts, buy to a price point, and maybe occasionally sneak a peek at a review. Nearly impossible, AFAIK, to borrow and audition a cart, let alone buy one w/ a MBG. The III to IV jump is an OK improvement, but certainly is not cheap. No experience w/ the SDS. Actually, record cleaning effort and procedures are producing nearly the same improvements... |
Dear Doug: You read in the " book ": 8hz to 12 hz, and I agree with that. ***" Clearly he is disagreeing here just to be disagreeable.....": Come on, Msiebers is talking about 12.6hz that's why I'm in agree with him: Doug don't tell me that you or anyone can hear the difference in sound reproduction between a tonearm/cartridge with a resonance frecuency of 12hz ( right on target )against the same combo with 12.6hz?. This is why I don't agree with you in this particular subject.*****"with no way to increase your own worth but by reducing someone else's. What a pathetic and loveless", fortunatelly I don't need to increase my worth, please speak for your self and don't be angry when I call you inexpert ( I'm inexpert in several audio subjects, like anyone ), maybe the problem is that you think that you are a whole expert and that any one can be free to disagree with you. Doug, do it you a favor: try to learn with " live experience ", if you do that then you can grow up with less mistakes, less time and less money. Regards and always enjoy the music. Raul. |
Mark, good luck with your cartridge. We are all lucky to have so many good choices. Doug, the original poster asked about the Shelter 501, and I was attempting to shared my experience of how it sounds. I believe the character of the sound will be essentially the same on his equipment. I tried to include the equipment I used at the time to give the context of my experience with the shelter. I apologize if this was confusing. Doug, I feel you have misjudged my post. It was not a personal attack, but a request for you to share your experience. I asked for the basis of your opinion because you have presented your conclusion without detailing the experience that led to your conclusion. I have been following the discussions of resonant frequency on the vinyl engine and AA by headshell/hybris. He has stated several times that a higher resonant frequency is desirable, and that has matched my own limited experience. I feel that tracking improves with a higher resonant frequency. What is the bass frequency that is affected ? If it is the low bass (20-40 Hz), that would explain why many would not hear the impact, since most systems Iincluding my own) do not reproduce this range. |
Mstram, If I'd known you were ready to jump in the 901's direction I'd have offered to lend you mine at no cost but shipping. You could have made a decision based on your own ears. I'm sure you'll enjoy the cartridge, which is a pretty good one. Good luck in your analog adventures. MSiebers, FWIW, I have heard systems with cart/arm resonances above 12 Hz. IME the bass response of those systems was sub-optimal. There's a reason most people prefer a range of 8-12Hz, with 10Hz being optimal. It works a little better. A Shelter performs well on your WT arm? That's great, but Mark doesn't have a WT arm. A Shelter also performs well on a modded OL Silver and even better on a mass-matched Schroeder Reference. What does any of this have to do with Mark's SME 309? Slipknot1, Strangely enough, Raul has made the same 10Hz recommendation that I did several times on other threads. Clearly he is disagreeing here just to be disagreeable. I interpret this as his cry for help. Raul apparently believes that tearing someone else down builds him up. His world must be a starkly unfulfilling place. Imagine living life in a zero-sum game, with no way to increase your own worth but by reducing someone else's. What a pathetic and loveless existence. Such a person must either discover a new path or go mad. PsychicAnimal's or Cello's prescriptions might help him. Finding God might help him. Raul has yet to discover the courage within himself to trust anything beyond himself. I hope someday he will. |
I have used a 103R and a Dynavector DV20XH and the Denon is lovely. It compares very well to the prior Madrigal Carnegie which I traded away as it was at the end of its life and I decided not to invest in rebuilding it (maybe a mistake). The 103 series is not only a great value it is a great sounding unit. |
Raul, I have seen you weigh in on several threads regarding analog playback systems. Your negative, comments, your "I am right and everyone else is wrong" attitude is wearisome, rude, and uncalled for. If you cannot say something constructive without insulting someone else's choices in equipment or technique, please refrain from posting at all. It must be a terrible burden to be right all the time while everyone else is wrong. Mstram, Please forgive me from hijacking your thread, but Raul travels from thread to thread with insulting remarks for anyone who does not conform to his thinking with respect to analog playback. |
Raul: I have seen you warn against he 103R on several threads, and yet, I've seen many tens of posts from users saying they are a good performer and a great value. Can you detail for us your impressions of the 103R and why you warn against its use. Please, do not just say it is "bad" or it is "garbage". Instead, some reasons and impressions. Thanks |
Mark: Msiebers is right. Doug speak what he read on the " book ". He don't have experience with a 12.6hz tonearm/cartridge combo resonant frecuency against the same cartridge with an other ( or the same ) tonearm with a 9.7hz ( example ) resonant frecuency: he is inexpert on this subject. BTW, please don't buy the DL 103R cartridge: it is a garbage of cartridge. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
I have to disagree with Doug about 12.6 Hz being too high a resonant frequency. IMO, it is just about perfect. See the following link for a more lenghty explanation. http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=16350&highlight=compliance+range&r=&session= I have used the Shelter 501 on a well-tempered classic. To my ears, it had a touch of honey added that might not be a good match for an already warm system. Also, it had a somewhat distant perspective. Still, it was always musical with excellent resolution and bass response in my system. Stereo imaging and depth were exceptional. Mark, if the sonic attributes of the Shelter appeal to you, I say go for it. It is a great match for your arm. |
Mark I am firm beleiver in the quicksilver transformer~$400.00. IMO anyone using a low output moving coil with tube preamp must have one. Not so sure about solid state. Insufficient gain in the phono stage should showup as: having to turn the volume control way higher than usual. lack of slam excessive background noise. By the way $1000.00 should buy you the cartridge of your dreams. Stay away from used, the magnets degrade over time. Some companies offer trade-in value for used cartridges. if you can get one for under fifty dollars it may be worth your while. |
