Atlantic City casinos closing...

"07-23-14: Onhwy61

Selecting only ideas and facts that just supports your argument just so you can win, does no one any good.

But you just did that."

I agree. You did one side, I did the other.

"Being poor usually means you live in a poor neighborhood. Your zip code heavily influences your credit and insurance rates."

They can't factor your zip code in for credit. Its not allowed, check it if you don't believe me. For some types of insurance, they can. Whether or not the zip heavily determines your rate has very little to do with income. For example, if you live in an area that has very bad wheather, yes, you can have high HO rates. But that has nothing to do with your income, everyone pays high rates.

"As a percentage of their income, poor people pay higher taxes (including sales taxes, gas surcharges, taxes on utilities, etc) than poor people."

Maybe. You have to take that on a case by case basis. Don't forget everyone has to pay those taxes. Also, don't forget to factor in poor people are usually exempt from most, if not all income tax. (Yes, I know they're exempt because they're poor, but it still helps. That's why its done.)

" And as far as not committing crimes and having a good work ethic, the NYPD walked up to a man in broad daylight and choked him to death for apparently having those two qualities."

I don't mind having a debate, but that statement really has no place in this discussion. You're singling out one extreme exception, and when you really look at the incident, the Cop was 100% at fault, regardless of whatever his excuse was. You're smarter than that.

" Poor people have little say in what activities are considered crimes and that is a large part of the reason why jails are filled with poor people."

I think we are going to have to disagree on that one. Personally, I feel its an insult to law abiding poor people to make a statement like that. (I know you didn't mean it to be an insult, I'm just saying.) Our laws are not perfect and they never will be, but I feel you're making a choice when you commit illegal activity. There's plenty of poor people who play by the rules and get by.

"07-23-14: Nonoise
One needs only to google predatory lending practices to see how badly the poor are marginalized and screwed."

Its definitely a problem. There is some partial progress being made on that one. But don't forget, credit issues like this don't effect only poor people. You can make a very good case that reckless credit practices, on both sides of the fence, have turned middle and upper class people into poor people. Common sense and personal responsibility can go a long way.

"One needs only to google redlining practices in insurance rates and discover that although it's illegal, it's still done through other means (I used to work in insurance so don't try to tell me otherwise)."

That whole statement is a little vague. I do work in insurance. I'm fully licensed in both P&C and Life & Health in 3 states, as well as having my related Fed securities licenses. I think what you are talking about exists like you say, but the problem is no where near large enough to make a case for keeping poor people poor. Actually, I'm surprised that you don't bring up the biggest problem with insurance companies; paying out legitimate claims. They're absolute scumbags when it comes to that.

"What we take as added costs (taxes, surcharges, fees) amount to total, all consuming costs for the poor. Every penny they make or procure goes right out the door. So yes, they are the hardest hit and it's not their fault. They just have the smallest voice in government and are the last anyone pays attention to."

Why is it not their fault? I've had my ups and downs, and at times I was definitely poor. But it was my fault. I'm the one that made a bunch of jackass decisions that led to the result. I know people will probably take offense to this, but for most poor people, it is they're fault they have no money. I understand there can be exemptions, but people just don't do enough to help themselves. You also mention the poor having a small voice in government and no one pays attention to them. Nothing could be further from the truth. With all the billions that we spend on programs that help the poor, we just get very little positive results. Great attention is paid, its just not working.

The poor may not pay higher taxes percentage wise, but interest rates depend on how good a persons credit score is. So is the rate of auto ins. 5 years ago I checked ins. rates for pilot escorts and it averaged about 3800.00 per year. Mine would have been 1965.00 (if I wanted the job) When I asked my insurance agent why mine was so much lower, it was due to my high credit rating. Wish I could buy highend equipment (for cash) because of that.

"When I asked my insurance agent why mine was so much lower, it was due to my high credit rating."

He was just saying that because it was the first thing he thought of. There's so many factors that go into a decision like that, he can't possibly know them all right off the top of his head. Remember, people that sell insurance are still sales people. Most sales people will lie for any number of reasons. Its unfortunate, but that's how it works.

With a level playing field, one can have just as good a chance to make it as anyone else. Show me that level playing field. It's never existed and probably never will.

Anyone born into poverty has a greater than 60% chance of staying there, despite attempts to raise oneself. Anyone born into wealth has a better than 60% chance of staying there despite any self destructive attempts to ruin that chance.

What you're born into goes a long way to how you're perceived and accepted. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule but ....

Our economy can turn around rather quickly making this discussion moot as our problems are one of policy and not the result of natural events.

Were it only so.

All the best,
Nonoise

Zd542, There's something I'd like to point out with regard to your blaming the poor for being poor as a result of bad decision making and not taking enough personal responsibility. Most of us contributing to this thread probably made some bone headed decisions when young but we had an internal moral compass and personal examples of what it took to succeed to guide us. Our parents, teachers, and community imbued those values in us from the time we were young. Those examples helped guide us as we grew up and gained life experience. Most of the poor never gain the advantage of positive examples and life lessons because their of crappy luck at birth.

My wife was an elementary school teacher for 39 years and believe me, she saw the full gamut of parenting and child rearing skills in our society. We are not born with the innate inborn skills needed to help us negotiate the social and financial minefields that proliferate in our society. If a kid grows up with no positive role models and no direct familial/societal pressures to succeed and evolve upwardly, no amount of government largess or standardized school testing and pressure is going to change the life trajectories of most people. That said, does that mean that we should abandon all hope and stop trying to save the few that CAN rise above their poor circumstances of birth?

Much of my work is at the other side of the educational spectrum with college students. Believe me, I see plenty of students who are the first ones in their families to go to college and they ARE rising above it all and they will stop perpetuating their family's cycle of poverty. Without the programs you say "aren't working," there would be many thousands of college students without the opportunity to change their lives. No doubt you are correct that we spend billions on social programs with inadequate outcomes. However, if we abandon efforts to help the poor and wash our hands of responsibility for them, we'll have a society with attributes of those in South and Central America eventually. Those with good jobs and adequate livelihood will live in armed compounds with private security and the rest will live in a world like the favelas of Rio and Sao Paulo.

What's the answer to our societal problems and how do we improve outcomes of the programs we spend billions on? I wish I knew. I only know both sides of the political spectrum in the US seem like the blind men feeling one part of the elephant and thinking they have the whole picture.