Audio Horizons TP 2.0 Preamplifier

Joe, I'm happy to see that you are so happy with your system that you're willing to wait until you're snowed in before you tweak your preamp anymore. I'm curious if anyone has tried the elusive Amperex pinched waist 6922 tubes. They are rare and expensive. I have not yet found a deal on a pair, but I'd love to try a pair or hear from someone who has. In the meantime, I am happy with the Siemens CCa tubes in one and three location. By the way, Markwattkiss. I am still in the final stages of previewing these new power cords, but I think I can reveal the company now. They are made by Fusion Audio. I have the Predator and Impulse models in my system. I'm still a week or so away from making a final decision, but so far, I'm very impressed.

Josh,
I personally haven't had an opportunity to have a VTL 5.5 preamp in my system so I can't offer a comparison for you. My suggestion is that you ask the dealer to let you borrow a VTL 5.5 and listen to it in your system for a trial period. Audio Horizons has a 30 day return policy so you can get a 2.1n version to compare to the VTL in your own system. In my opinion, this is the best way for you to make your decision. Your system and room acoustics are more than likely different than your dealer's room, so get them both in your system for some serious listening with your favorite music.

Btsrg,
Please let me know how you like the pinched waists in the preamp. It's the only tube I don't have access to, but then, I could live happily ever after with these Siemens CCa. By the way, I have tried both a Transparent and Premium power cord on my preamp. For the money, they are very good, but in all honesty, there are much better cords, however, for a price. I don't mean to down-play any of Joseph's products because his preamp is the best I've had in my system and his other mods and upgrades are fantastic. His modded version of my Citation 18 tuner is an amazing achievement. This is currently my favorite source of listening in the evenings while I browse these forum threads. Mr. Chow is a genius when it comes to lowering noise level in audio components. I previously had an Electraglide Epiphany X which I thought was just a perfect match for my TP 2.0n; until recently, I came across a new copper/silver blended foil/ribbon power cord that is unbelievable. My TP 2.0n has never sounded better. I can't even imagine it sounding any better. In fact, I'll go so far as to say, I'm done for a long while in my preamp searches. My 5ft. Epiphany X will be up for sale soon. Any fellow TP 2.0 owners want a brother-in-law deal?

Stltrains,
The tubes are a matter of personal taste in what sounds best in your system. I personally prefer the accuracy, neutrality and great upper extension of the Siemens CCa in my system, but you might prefer another brand for its personality in your system. It's a good idea to let the preamp burn-in for a few days before you seriously evaluate it in your system. Also, if you are introducing a new power cord, allow at least 150 hours for it to break in as well. I look forward to hearing your listening impressions.

On initial listening when I first got my TP 2.0n, the highs were rolled off, the mids restricted, and the bass a little loose and light sounding. You'll gradually hear better and better improvements over the next few days. I have had mine for about a year and a half now, so I can't recall when everything clicked in on the sound, but after 72 hours, you should be about 85-90% there, and that is leaving the unit on 24/7. When you do eventually turn it off to conserve on tube life and electricity, the unit will sound nice upon initial turn-on, but will sound its best after roughly 45 minutes once the circuits settle in. YMMV.

I just wanted to give my fellow TP 2.0/2.1 owners an update on these new power cords in my system. They have just passed the 250 hour mark in my system, so I feel that they have gone through all their strange ups and downs, shifts, etc. in achieving their final break in. In three words, "Oh my God!" These are the most amazing power cords I have ever experienced. They are the new Fusion Audio cords. I have the bottom line Predator models on my VAC monoblocs and the Impulse model on my preamp. If you do a search of some of my cable posts you'll see that I have been a cable junky for quite a few years, going back to 1977 when I swapped out my Monster Cable 12 guage speaker cables for the new MIT MH 750 Music Hose speaker cables. When I heard the difference in my meager system consisting then of Vandersteen 2B speakers, Musical Concepts modified Hafler DH200 amp, and modified Stew Hegeman preamp, I was floored by the difference that this cable swap made. This was at a time when some reviewers were saying that cables didn't make a difference. If you have a pair of good ears, the answer to those naysayers back then was "Hogwash!" In the past 25-30 years I have experienced a wide variety of cables( interconnects, speaker cables, and within the last 5 years--power cords. In power cords, I have had some of the best in my system from reputable manufacturers, DIY home-made, not-so-reputable, and some in-betweeners. A partial list of names is: VH Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research, Electraglide, Acoustic Zen, Elrod, Virtual Dynamics,Dream State, and a few others I can't recall. Some of these cords made a good impression and some didn't work out so well. The reasons were possibly poor synergy, poor design, or who knows. I recently read briefly about this new power cord line from Fusion Audio and was able to get a few of the new production cords that I mentioned for a discount because one of the partners, Kirk, is a long time acquaintance/friend whom I have communicated with for a few years about our systems and recently became a customer when Kirk became a joint dealer for Electraglide. Kirk sent me the cords after I made a security deposit with him with the stipulation that I evaluate them for a few weeks and if they didn't work out in my system I could send them back, paying only the shipping both ways. I thought, "Why not?' I'm game for trying something new. The cords were new with no break in. Normally the manufacturer will pre-break in the cords on a cooker prior to shipping to the customer, but Eric, the actual maker and other partner, had to rush make these up for me to ship off as Kirk had to travel out of town, so I told them to ship asap and I would go through the lengthy period of their break-in( They actually didn't really start sounding wonderful until about the 185 hour mark.) Anyway, to make a long story( review?) short, these power cords are staying in my system. They have lifted my system to celestial heights and I am not exagerating one bit. I had the older version( better than current) of the Electraglide Epiphany X on my TP 2.0n and thought it sounded as good as it could get. The Fusion Audio Impulse is substantially better in all regards to the Epiphany X. Fellow TP 2.0 owners. You haven't lived until you put a Fusion Audio Impulse on your preamp. Take it from a long time power cord nut who has tried 90% of the best stuff out there. The Fusion Audio power cord lines are the culmination of many months of trial and error, fine-tuning through careful listening on premium components in various systems. The standard cords come with the fairly inexpensive Wattgate connectors, reason being that they were the most neutral of anything out there. For those systems that need extra warmth, brightness, etc. for a nominal fee you can choose from a variety of Oyaide, Furutech, and other popular connectors. As for me, I'm happy with the cheap Wattgates because I prefer neutrality and naturalness( read: Alive) in my system. I was going to write a separate review on these power cords, but I can't write worth a damn and it takes too long with my two-fingered typing. It's a miracle that I was able to write this much but I forced myself to because of my extreme enthusiasm for this new power cord line. In conclusion, please believe me that I am writing this information strictly as a satisfied customer. I am not a dealer ( although I wouldn't mind being one) and I'm not a shill. I didn't get these for free( I already said that I got a discount)and I'm not getting any form of payment from Fusion Audio. They didn't ask me to write up anything about their cords. I am writing this from my heart as I am merely a typical audiophile seeking to extract every nuance of beautiful music that I can from my system. This is my love and my hobby.

Joe, here's their website, but so far, not much info on the products other than price:

http://www.audiosurroundings.com/catalog.php/Ericlove/ct14536

I have been working with Kirk, Audiogon member Audiofankj.

Btstrg,

Fusion Audio has no relationship to Scott Hall or Electraglide. Yes, they are a similar design in that they use copper and silver foil conductors, but they were designed and voiced by the owner of Fusion Audio. That is where the similarity ends. In my humble opinion, these new Fusion Audio cords are far superior not only in quality, but definitely in sound. I am going to sell my 5 ft. older Epiphany X cord soon if you are interested. Contact Kirk at Fusion Audio for details.

Yes, Kirk is Audiofankj, a really nice and honest guy.

Good news Stltrains. I'm happy to hear that you are enjoying your new preamp. I had a gut feeling that it would mate well with your amp. Keep us posted on the further developments.

Rx8man,
I was shocked to see that you had sold your beloved VAC 220 monoblocs. I hope everything is all right for you. Did you ever get a chance to visit Robert to evaluate his Sason speakers? What's going on in your system?

I just shipped Joseph my preamp to do a little servicing and tweaking for me. I hope it gets to him by the 10th as he is going to be at the RMAF show through the 14th. I'm still not sure if he is going to demonstrate any of his products or if he is just going to see what is there. Anybody else know what Joseph will be doing at the RMAF?

Hey, Bill( Grannyring). How's that updated TP 2.0 sounding to you? Are you ready yet to give us a brief comparison of the differences? I'm a pretty anxious TP 2.0 owner ready to make the move myself.

Thank you, Bill, for taking the time to give us your impressions of the upgraded preamp. I feel your enthusiasm and it is contagious. I guess I better get on the bandwagon.
Enjoy the music.

Hey! We're all in this together. There are many others out there who have compared far more preamps out there than myself. All I know is what I have now sounds pretty darn good.

Grannyring,
Did Joseph give you a parts,etc. breakdown of what all he did in your 2.0 upgrade. I have sent my preamp to Joseph to have mine done and was curious if Joseph gave you an itemization of what he did.

I just checked the website and didn't see anything about the upgrade from 2.0 to 2.1. Lots of info on the upgrades for the 2.1 itself as well as various upgrades to other preamp brands as well though. Maybe that is why Victor commented that he'll be making an announcement at the end of the month about this particular upgrade. I wonder why he's going to wait until the end of the month. Hmmmmm...

Yes, Stltrains. I also want to know what "gooey" means. I just checked your system. Man, you have a nice system, and do I see correctly that you have five preamps? Do you collect preamps and alternate occasionally for a different sound and perspective? Very interesting. By the way, great photo of you and the Mrs. enjoying the beach.

Ouch, Rx8man! I hope the buyer is being understanding. It's amazing how much damage can be done by the Fedex and UPS guys. I am going to file a claim with fedex on my preamp, but don't know if they'll pay. I've read some nightmare claim stories here in these threads. I hope UPS will rectify the problem for you and the new owner of your VAC monos.

Hi Grannyring,

Got an update on your new preamp upgrade? Are you still as enthusiastic as after the 30 hour mark?

Grannyring, thanks for the info. I do rememember now reading about what Joseph did to Cedar's 2.0 upgrade. I still am curious what announcement Victor is going to make about this upgrade at the end of the month. I also echo the above comments about the overall sound of the 2.0 preamp. Stltrains, I guess we can live with your new word gooey. I see images of melting caramel with this word; makes me kind of hungry.

Thank you, Victor, for the update. Gosh, I didn't realize that Victor was following this thread so closely. ;>)

Bill,
I have tried a couple of the AH interconnects and preferred a cable mix that I already had. I am still using an AH Premium( original) power cord version in my system with good results, though. I can't use the XLR outputs because my amp is only single-ended and all the rest of my ic's are single-ended as well. I would imagine that the XLR set-up would be quieter.

Hey, speaking of the Audio Horizons Glee Club( i.e. Markwattkiss), is anyone else going to the RMAF in Denver? I wish I could but work and lack of funds keeps me at home this year. I just blew my discretionary income on the 2.1 upgrade. Maybe next year. If anyone does go, please try to meet up with Joseph and Victor( maybe take some photos?) and report back on this thread next week. Have fun for those who are going.

Well, folks. Joseph just finished my 2.1 upgrade and has shipped out my preamp. I expect it to arrive early next week and can't wait to listen to it. Man, I'm glad that I've developed patience over the years. I sure do miss my preamp. By the way. If you do return something back to Joseph for an upgrade, mod,etc., make sure that you pack it well in the original double box that Joseph shipped it to you in the beginning. I accidently threw mine away and packed it well in a single box. Leave it to our friends at Fedex to damage the faceplate and power knob. The face plate looked like it had been hacked with an axe a few times. Cost me $50.00 to replace. Oh, what a stupid I am...

Bill,
Mt preamp isn't due to arrive until Mon. or Tues. Once I get it hooked up and playing for a day or so, I'll give everyone my impressions. I am curious to see what announcement Victor has to make regarding the upgrades. He and Joseph are at the RMAF now in Denver.

Excellent, Bill. I am happy to hear of your improved system's ability to accurately portray music. I look forward to hearing mine as well. Stay tuned.

Bill,
I agree with your assessment about the preamp being so revealing. I loved my un-upgraded 2.0 so much that I couldn't imagine it getting much better, but when I put a Fusion Impulse copper/silver foil power cord on it, I was in heaven. If heaven sounds better than this then take me now, dear Lord. (<;

I received my upgraded TP 2.0 prreamp this morning. I just hooked it up into the system and turned it on a few minutes ago. Way too early to give listening impressions as the preamp will probably need a few days to settle in, but initially, the first thing that I noticed is an increase in volume. I am getting the same volume at the 8 o'clock position as I was before at the 10 o'clock position before the upgrade. Did anyone notice this volume increase? I wonder if maybe the gain might be too much. I'll reserve impressions until a few days have passed. I will ask Victor about the gain when he and Joseph return and get re-settled from the RMAF show. I'm sure that they'll need to time to regroup. I do hope that they make some good contacts to help further the growth and expansion of Audio Horizons. I wish only the best for these gentlemen.

Well, I have about 32 hours on my upgraded Tp 2.0 to 2.1 preamp. So far, I'm not too impressed. The sound initially is much louder( more gain) with a larger soundstage and a more up-front presentation. Soundstage does indeed seem to be more 2-dimensional than previously experienced. Transparency seems to be improved with better delineation of detail. You can hear more background information(i.e. handclaps, individual instruments, singers) but my ears are missing some aliveness. The presentation I had previously with the 2.0 version gave me a sound that gave musical instruments and voices a "breath of life" sound that I'm not getting with this new upgrade. Stay tuned for more input after further break in.

I might have been premature in posting an impression. I just received an e-mail from Victor and since Joseph does extensive mods to the power supply along with the new wiring harness and output caps, Victor told me to hold off for at least 100 hours to make an impression. It just passed the 54 hour mark, so there is a ways to go. I'll be patient and give it more time.

Good idea, Tvad. Maybe Victor will address this in their website or on this thread soon. I had thought that the trial period was 30 days. Maybe that applies to their cables. Victor, it might be time to clarify some issues to eliminate the vagueness of some things.

Bill(Grannyring), I suppose, because of your extreme enthusiasm after just 30 hours for the upgrade, it caused me to wonder after my first 30 hours with the unit. When you mentioned that the preamp is revealing of all the cables preceding it, I would agree, but at the same time, in my opinion, the more revealing the cables, the easier it is to hear the break-in of the preamp. I don't think that my cables are an issue here. I have gone through a gazillion cables these last few years and feel that I have some amazing cabling in my system. If anything, my interconnects are ever-so-slightly on the warm side of neutral, which is preferable to me than on the other side of neutral. After 54 hours, the sound is definitely much better than at the 30 hour mark, however, the overall sound is still lacking in some body and upper extension. Victor told me that this should start to fill in when approaching the 100 hour mark. At this time, there is still a slight homogenization of the sound with a dullness in the palpability of the music. Again, Victor said this is due to the combination of the new wiring harness( In his words, Joseph's new harnesses take "a long time" to break in), the new output caps and the extensive mods to the power supply. I recall my original TP 2.0n version having a much smoother transition in its break in than this upgraded version. At this time, because the sound is improving, I will give it the benefit of the doubt and let it go through its 100 hour or so period. I am leaving my preamp on 24/7 and only listen to music when I get home from work for 4 or 5 hours. I hate leaving my preamp on continously because it is reducing the lifespan of my precious Siemens CCa tubes. Oh, the life of the continuously upgrading audio hobbiest. If only I could leave well enough alone sometimes.

I know that my upgraded preamp had no burn-in time on it. The minute Joseph finished the upgrades, he popped it into a box and got it on the first Fedex truck so that he could catch his flight to Denver for the RMAF show. I'm not complaining. It was either that or wait until he returned from the show to do the upgrade and return it to me then. Another week's delay would have killed me. I haven't heard from anyone of receiving anything but a new unit when they order from Audio Horizons, unless it's specified that its a demo unit, which I've only seen one up for sale recently. Then again, for those few preamps that are returned to Joseph, he's got to do something with them to resale. As to if he refurbishes them to be as new when he resales is another question. Victor is getting recuperative rest today after an exhaustive time at the RMAF show with Joseph. He just e-mailed me and told me soon that he would be posting here to clarify some things about the new preamp upgrades as well as tell us all some good news about some contacts he and Joseph made at the show.

Stltrains, if you have bought a good set of early 60's Siemens CCa, hopefully prior to their change-over to another owner( @ 1965-66), with the grey plates, etc. you are going to be amazed at the magical portrayal of music. You'll especially notice this in locations 1 and 3. You might consider keeping Joseph's Siemens in 2 and 4 locations. I actually preferred the one pair of CCa's in mix with a later A-frame Siemens E88cc.

Bill, the preamp just passed the 59 hour mark and I'm starting to get a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. A smidgen of life, warmth and body along with increased micro dynamics and transparency is setting in...but just a smidge. In my e-mail exchange with Victor, I mentioned that "breath of life"( one of my fave phrases) which was lacking. He explained that what I'm hearing is the natural compression and lack of air that is evident due to the lengthy break in until everything suddenly clicks in within the 100 hour mark. Apparently, the preamp will continue to further improve well after the 100 hours, but it will take up to the 100 hours just to get that "breath of life" which I'm missing. We'll see.

Joe,
I realize that the auditory memory is poor, however, being a musician and being very familiar with the live sound of instruments,I remember what the each preamp gave me in terms of reproducing recorded instruments which I am familiar with. I am going to continue listening nightly to my "new" preamp as it continues through its break-in towards the 100 hour mark. Stay tuned.

Only mental notes. I would like to have the two preamp versions side-by-side, but I will know in due time if I prefer this upgraded version to the old. So far, the new version does some things better, but the "breath of life" is still not quite there. The preamp has roughly 70 hours on it at this time. Thirty more to go.

My upgraded preamp just passed the 100-hour mark. Mixed emotions...

I would agree that sonically the TP 2.1n preamp version is completely different from the TP 2.0n version.

I have high hopes, Bill. At this juncture, I'm kinda sorta missing my old TP 2.0n.

Stltrains,
Regarding the pinging sound on one of your channels, I'm guessing that one of your new Cca tubes is microphonic. The 6922( E88cc) family, particularly NOS vintage ones were notorious for being microphonic. You might consider contacting the person you bought it from to see if he will exchange the bad one for you, unless they are a perfectly matched pair. Then you'll need to exchange with him the matched pair. Before you do that, however, exchange the tubes from left to right to see if the "pinging" sound moves to the other channel. If it does, then you definitely have a bad tube. If the pinging remains in the same channel after reversing the tubes, then you have another issue to problem solve for. I'm glad to hear that you are enjoying your preamp with the new Cca tubes. If the tubes are really NOS, then they should get even better after about 100 hours. Have fun.

Andrewdoan,
I'm sorry that no one has answered your request, so I'm assuming that nobody has had the chance to compare the Rogue with the TP 2.1n. As you know, Audio Horizons offers a trial and money-back guarantee. From a few previous posts there is some confusion as to the adequate time allowed in this trial to fully evaluate the preamp, however, most of the current owners seem to have kept their preamps while making up their minds before the 10 days ended. If you have or can get a Rogue unit for evaluation, I would suggest that you time it to get both the TP 2.1n preamp in at the same time of the Rogue unit and do a fun comparison of both in your system to make up your mind of which you like better. Maybe, someone will still chime in yet to give you their personal opinion of each.

"Over time I have to agree with Sherod, the newer version is weaker in "breath of life". Combined, all these differences make for a very different sounding preamp.

Perhaps burn in will ultimately bring this attribute to the music."

Bill, I heard this "breath of life" phrase in an older review from back in about 1978 of a pair of speakers that were time and phase aligned. Ever since then, I've kept this phrase in my mind as to me it encompasses a lot of things. Actually, that elusive "breath of life" is more important to me than any of the other attributes you mentioned, yet when a component expresses that "breath of life" the other attributes should be there as well, but not always. In a nutshell, "breath of life" means real and palpable to me. If I'm listening to a good piano recording, I expect it to give me a "live" presentation, not a reasonable facsimile of one, no matter how clean and big it sounds on that stage. So far, with my upgraded preamp, the presentation of the soundstage is larger than life, and the sound is all coming from a two-dimensional plane. For example, when I listen to an orchestra that has been well recorded, I want to hear the trumpets coming from the back row, the flutes and clarinets on the front, the percussionists even further back. To me, at this point, the orchestra seems to be all sitting together on the front row. This is difficult to explain, for me.

Stltrains,
I'm glad to hear that you isolated the bad tube. You might like this new configuration better. It's very similar to my configuration. I also hope that the seller will work with you on the exchange. Keep us posted on the sound with these new tubes.

Grant,
I feel a bit uncomfortable mainly because I seem to be the only one so far who has issues with the new, upgraded preamp( besides yourself, that is). I just want to make sure that all is okay before I make any final assessments. I'm currently communicating with Victor who is awaiting a response from Joseph on what I can do to determine why I am hearing what I'm hearing.

La45,
According to Victor, the new wiring harness has a lot to do with the looooong break in.

For the technically-minded, the new output caps in the TP 2.1 upgrade are 1uf value. These are bypassed with a .22uf Solen cap to tame down the highs a bit. The TP 2.0n had a 4.7uf Hovland. I find this interesting as this value difference might make a difference in matching to input impedances of certain amps. Perhaps Victor will expound on this.

Grant,
My upgraded preamp just passed the 120 hour mark. Yes, the voices do seem to appear to be still slightly recessed. The highs are also a bit softer,i.e. cymbals and bells are a tad soft. I used the word subdued with Victor and he calls it soft(You call it "to-ma-to", I call it "to-mah-to"). The soundstage seems to be wider, yet not deeper( overall much larger than life to me). I am going to give it through the weekend and by then, if I'm not satisfied, I'm going to talk with Victor or Joseph to see if I can semi-revert back to the original TP 2.0n version. I have tried many different versions and value sizes of output caps in my previous TP 2.0n version and Joseph said that when he upgraded my preamp he had to repair some traces on the board that had rubbed off somewhat( from all the cap changes I made). Victor "strongly" urged me not to experiment with cap replacements anymore. Still, at this juncture, my ears are missing the "breath of life" sound that the Hovlands were giving me, in spite of Victor's opinion that the Hovlands sound a little compressed and veiled in comparison to the new caps. Since Joseph doesn't give an itemization of all what changes he makes( only a generalization), I'm wondering if my older Hovlands would still be a drop-in replacement for the new output caps. Victor told me that the Hovlands would work in the new unit, but hasn't responded to a follow-up e-mail where I asked him to confirm with Joseph about the Hovlands being a drop-in replacement) You might want to consider communicating with me privately from here on so as not to ruffle some feathers here on this thread.

Grant,
I'm not so sure yet that the issue is with the amp interaction. It might be just a coincidence that we both share sister amps. I am going to take an educated guess that based on my experience(with changing out the output caps, experimenting with different brands and values, as well as with many smaller bypass caps)that there might be a phase anamoly or irregularity with the new output caps and the solen bypass caps. In the TP 2.0 version with upgraded Hovland caps, rated at 4.7uf, I tried different values of the same Hovland cap( 1uf,2uf,3.3uf, and 4uf) None sounded as good as the 4.7uf value which Joseph was using. This lead me to believe that Joseph knew what he was doing and had pretty good ears. I later tried various Audiophile-type caps( Dynamicaps,V-caps) with same and different values and always came back to the 4.7uf value. For some reason, this value worked best with my VAC amps and sounded the best to me. Initially, I preferred the V-caps( 4.7uf oil-impregnated) because they just had more life and dynamics to them. But after a while there was this over-warmth and smoothing effect which robbed the music of proper attack to my ears, so I eventually went back to my trusty Hovland caps. It was when I recently found a new power cord line, Fusion Audio) that these really brought out the life and realism of my system, especially the TP 2.0. Everything finally just "clicked" in. Based on my faith of Joseph's ears and work, I decided to try the new upgraded version and that is where I am now after about 130 hours of burn in. One of the things that I noticed when I was experimenting with different caps and bypasses, the preamp never, and I mean never, sounded right with the bypass caps, no matter what value. Every bypass cap caused some type of phase anamoly which skewed the frequency response in an unnatural way. Depending on the value of the bypass, this skewing ,or plateau-effect, if you will, took away that natural balance and breath of life from the music. My TP 2.0 sounded its best when only one value cap alone was used in the outputs. Ultimately, as imperfect as the Hovland 4.7uf is, it sounded the best in the circuit of the TP 2.0. Joseph got it right the first time around, IMHO.

Stltrains,
I'm very happy for you that the TP 2.1 preamp has worked out so well you in your system. Enjoy the music, my friend.

Grant, I might have spoken too soon. You have a point about a possible impedance mismatch with our amps. More to come.