Balanced cables

dlcockrum-Went to the Ayre website to check the gain specs on the Ayre preamps. Its very common that companies making preamps with both single ended and XLR outputs will adjust the gain higher to the XLR and lower to the single ended outputs. The Ayre KX-5 has a maximum of only 4 db's to the single ended and 10 db's to the XLR's which is a big difference with short runs. This is why the XLR "sounds better" since the gain is much stronger than the single ended. If the single ended gain was at 10 db's and the XLR at 4 db's then the RCA output would sound much better. This has nothing to due with the type of cables, just higher gain that makes a difference. Doesn't take rocket science to figure that out.

Depending on which amp and speakers I have setup, there is a definite preference for the XLR cable between preamp and amp.  The cable chosen is a different brand between the two setups. The remainder of the systems cabing remains unchanged.

Yikes, that long of a run will be really pricey for a quality cable.  The hard part is there is not a best cable period.  It will take time and a few candidates to find the right one for you and your system.  Maybe the Cable Company has some long runs of different XLRs you can try.

You will get everyone’s version of the best cable, unfortunately that won’t help you one bit.  I won’t tell you mine.

Question, is this a new problem or something that’s been there awhile and finally bothering you to the point of doing something about it?

Atma-Sphere is Ralph Karsten, http://www.atma-sphere.com/AboutUs

gdnrbob.....who is Ralph?

I have an Ayre preamp and an Ayre CDP and the quality of XLR cables most definitely do affect the sound character of my system.

Dave

Stringreen, I, too, own Vandy (Treo's) and am currently using the Atma MP-3 and MX-R amps (non Twenty).
Ralph sold me a set of XLR cables (25foot) to go from the preamp to his MA-1's. They weren't expensive and I find them to be very listenable (no shrillness). 
Perhaps you should give him a call, and get his take on this. His take, if I recall correctly, is that if the equipment is designed properly (like his and Ayre's), then an XLR shouldn't affect sound quality.
Bob

Fsonicsmith, thanks. I essentially agree with everything in your post above. There are always myriad tradeoffs in a design, and the net result of those tradeoffs often will not conform to commonly stated paradigms.

For example a major reason, and perhaps the most major reason, for ARCs 20K minimum load recommendation is their use of a coupling capacitor at the outputs of their line stages and preamps, which of course is very commonly done in tube-based line-level components, and which among other things causes a substantial rise in output impedance at deep bass frequencies. And while that effect could be minimized by simply increasing the value of the capacitor (i.e., the number of microfarads), doing so would most likely increase the sonic colorations introduced by the capacitor itself, and/or result in the capacitor being a larger and potentially impractical physical size.

And an alternative approach that is used in some tube designs, using a transformer instead of a capacitor, certainly can have tradeoffs of its own.

Regarding feedback, yes, ARC power amp designs tend to use more of it than many and probably most high quality tube amps from other manufacturers. Consequently they have lower effective output impedances and higher damping factors than those other amps, which in turn can be either an advantage or a disadvantage or neither depending on the particular speaker that is being used. And the downsides feedback can potentially have with respect to the intrinsic sonic character of the amp will depend on numerous other aspects of its design.

As you aptly summarized, "it all depends."

Stringreen, I have no particular knowledge regarding the sensitivity of your Ayre components to cable differences. An experiment that could possibly be informative, though, would be to **temporarily** put a cheater plug on the amp’s power cord, to defeat its safety ground connection. If that results in a perceptible sonic difference it would suggest that ground loop effects may be present, which in turn can result in sensitivity to cable differences especially when the length involved is long. Note Ralph’s criterion no. 2 for minimizing the sensitivity of balanced interfaces to cable differences, in his post that I referenced earlier:

Atmasphere 3-22-2013
... 2) Ground is ignored- the signal occurs only between pin 2 and 3 (this is where most high end audio preamps have a problem- as soon as there are signal currents in the shield of the cable, the construction of the cable becomes critical).

Regards,
-- Al

BTW-There is no such thing as a "balanced cable". That term implies that an XLR/Cannon connector was only designed to be used with fully balanced left/right channel audio components which is very misleading and completely false. There are solid state components that are fully balanced with both RCA and XLR connector's. The inventor of the XLR never used the term "balanced" for his connector. When the very first stereo receiver was invented by Sydney Harman in the 1950's, the Festival 1000, it was a fully balanced design in twin cabinets with the left channel in one cabinet and the right in the other. with a control panel on the front of each unit. A classic dual mono design. The unit had RCA connector's only. The term "balanced" was a label put on XLR cables by Audiophiles in the 80's. You can label an RCA cable as well as a "balanced cable" if its used between fully balanced components. 

I have an all Ayre system (with Vandersteen speakers). I’m hearing a kind of metallic sound from the system which I’d like to pin down. As I stated above, its totally balanced from cartridge/CD player through the amp. I even removed the tweeter and mid from the boxes, sent them to Vandersteen who deemed them in excellent health. A while back I tried different XLR cables which had a minimal effect on the total sound....but that was awhile ago (Wireworld top of the line). I’m sure my hearing has changed (I’m a violinist and sit next to the piccolo) and just thinking about change. My amp is about 14/15 feet from the preamp, and no one has that length to try without a firm purchase.......still thinking. Re: Cardas......no luck with that brand. Colleen Cardas told me that it probably needed more time to break in (months?)....although I haven’t heard their newest offerings.

Al, I always read your posts with interest. You clearly know far more than I do about technical aspects of electronics. I can not read a schematic and never understood concepts of loading as it pertains to amps or phono cartridges :-). With that spirit in mind, I think I know this; say what you wish about ARC, but their 40 year history of building top-tier preamps is incontrovertible. I am going to venture a guess that while Ralph is most likely correct, there are also drawbacks to designing a preamp that is capable of driving low impedance loads. Even if it were true that with certain preamp designs, the quality or "pickiness" of the XLR choice were minimal, is that attribute a "freebie" without trade-offs? I can't help but think of the relatively high negative feedback employed by ARC in the Ref 150se. It's a buzzword in the industry that "no negative feedback" or "minimal negative feedback" is and of itself a mark of distinction and superior sound. Again, I only know that I am getting hair raising chills on the back of my neck and total immersion in the music with the tonal density I had hoped for and without any perceptible bloat, with a wide and deep soundstage that was not critical on my wish-list, but a happily accepted bonus. As with many hobbies, there are certain buzzwords that tend to predominate as accepted truths, but the reality is that "it all depends". 

Fsonicsmith, as a point of information ARC line stages and preamps do not meet the criteria Atmasphere cited in his post that I referenced that would minimize or eliminate sensitivity to differences between balanced cables.  Certainly, at least, with respect to his criterion no. 4:

Atmasphere 3-22-2013
...  4) the output of the preamp should be capable of driving a low impedance load (2000 ohms or less) without loss of voltage, without increase in distortion and without loss of bass (this is the other big area where high end audio preamps have a problem, and also results in cable sensitivity).

ARC's recommended load for nearly all of their line stages and preamps is a minimum of 20K, and in some cases a minimum of 60K is indicated as being optimal.

So when "ARC stresses in their manual that the quality of the XLR going into the Ref 150se is critical," as you indicated, they are indeed "telling the truth."

Regards,
-- Al
 

Is this the same Stingreen who knows all about VPI gear, turntable set-up, and Quicksilver gear, the same Stingreen who years ago gave me specific advice as to how to upgrade the coupling caps on my ARC VS110? :-)
I was a bit surprised to see that you have expressed your disdain for Cardas cables. My opinion/experience is that as the quality of the electronics goes up and assuming that the design is truly balanced, than yes, there are marked differences among XLR cables. I totally understand the viewpoint of cable-skeptics because the differences are on one hand subtle and yet on the other, they can be huge. One analogy is a photograph that is ever so slightly out of focus vs. the same photo that is. As the quality of the gear increases, the perception of that perfectly in-focus image is better appreciated. I now own an ARC Ref 6 and ARC Ref 150se and I tried a variety of XLR's between the pre and amp and also various speaker cables and with each, I heard vast differences. The Ref 150se doesn't even have single ended inputs. ARC stresses in their manual that the quality of the XLR going into the Ref 150se is critical and they were telling the truth. I ended up with Cardas Clear Beyond XLR and Cardas Clear speaker cables and could not be happier. 
When I first upgraded my electronics, I read all I could about the opposing views on XLR's and saw the posts of those who say that with balanced cables, the differences of various brands are minimal and suggesting that Mogami Gold is all one needs because that is what is used in recording studios. This is one of those things that sounds good on paper but does not fly in reality. I started out with those Mogami Golds and they were the sonic equivalent of that girl that your mom says has a "very nice personality". A $600 pair of Morrow MA-6's were better, but the sound was etched, tone and timbre sounded "off", and my music was coming out of two boxes. A pair of top level Harmonic Tech's on loan from a dealer were very nice but not quite what I wanted. With the Cardas, tone and timbre are spot-on, I get the chills on the back of the neck that I never came close to getting with any of the other wire, my speakers disappear in my room, and everything is in focus. 

elizabeth-that is partly true but only to the extent on how the high end component for in home use is designed. As I already stated a designer of amps and pre-amps can intentionally wire the signal path to an XLR to make it sound better than the RCA outputs, done for the purpose if one plans to do long cable runs in home beyond 25 feet. David Belles, who designs some of the finest solid state and tube pre-amplifiers in the world, does not use any XLR inputs or outputs on the back of his solid state or tube preamps, and they are quiet as a tomb. You will find single ended XLR inputs on the back of his top amps next to an RCA input only for the purpose of using the amp for very long cables in large environments. An XLR connector is just a connector, thats all. Its not a buffer or a processor and has nothing to whatsoever effecting the music signal. Its only function is to ground noise
feedback in a cable. It reminds me of the snake oil of many speaker companies selling models with three sets of binding post on their full range models. Even Spendor, my favorite British speaker company laughs at that nonsense as well, all their models, including their top flagship model, the D-9 uses only single pairs of binding posts.

Yes and no..Yes only if the signal path circuit is intentionally designed  by the engineer in an amp or preamp to be wired better to the XLR than the RCA connector. I read an article about ten years ago of an interview with James H. Cannon, the inventor of the XLR connector. Shortly after he added a lock on the three pin connector he passed away in 1950. I believe the interview was in 1949. He was asked in the interview if his XLR connector results in better sound than the RCA connector which was invented by RCA around 1942. He said "No..thats not the reason why I invented the connector". He explained it was only designed for better grounding with the ground pin to eliminate feedback when your running very long lengths beyond 20 feet to a hundred feet or more. He continued saying that if you have short lengths below 20 feet there is no feedback using an RCA to interfere with the signal and no difference in sound quality. Beware of snake oil.

While I have nothing to disagree with in the thread @almarg refers too the entire discussion is at a fairly basic/EE theory level in the cable controversy canon. To whit if you believe cables are sensitive to external vibration, interference from the surfaces they are resting on etc etc then balanced cables are just as subject to this as unbalanced. Certainly I’ve found that to be the case running 30’ lengths of WEL signature balanced to my power amps.  If you don’t believe any of this then be you can be happy with your long runs of studio grade balanced wire.

In many and I suspect the majority of cases, yes. In some cases no. It depends on the designs of the components that are being connected.

For the design characteristics of the interconnected components that are necessary to minimize and quite possibly eliminate the sensitivity of a balanced interconnection to cable differences, and for what I consider to be compelling proof of that contention, see the post by Ralph (Atmasphere) near the beginning of this thread. Also see the follow-up questions I presented to him later in the thread, and his response.

Regards,
-- Al

Yes. Most of the aspects of cable design that affect performance apply to balanced cables just like single ended, you just don’t have to worry about directionality 😉 assuming the manufacturer got this right in construction.

Seriously however you will hear differences as you move among balanced cables just as with single ended