Balanced cables

Robert, this conversation can serve no purpose any longer. 

@geoffkait 

Instead of accusing me of misrepresentation with wordy verbiage, why not explain yourself?

Robert

Robert from Star Sound, you have either intentionally or deliberately misrepresented what I said. As usual with your choleric rants spiced up with bizarre personal vendetta inspired diatribes it’s difficult to say which.

Had my Purist cables re terminated to balanced from single ended they use wonderful sounding XLRs.The sound get quieter and cleaner also louder as well big improvement in my system.

Besides, isn’t it the recording engineers that have been aggressively compressing our favorite tunes for the last 20 years, with no let up in sight? Thanks a bunch!

Mr. Kait,

The producers, record labels or whoever puts up the money calls the shots on how and what the recording is going to sound like so why all the ill will directed towards sound engineers?

I wouldn’t necessarily call it an engineering education since they actually don’t take any of the real difficult engineering and science course, you know, like dynamics or even statics, or thermodynamics, or nuclear engineering.

You always forget the obvious; Music is an Art Form where people with TALENT in the Music Industry do not necessarily require a degree in the aforementioned science related fields in order to succeed. I never met a nuclear engineer working a recording desk or toured sound with an expert in thermodynamics but I am willing to bet, most of them listen and enjoy music.

Just to clarify, even if there are some recording engineers with 4 year educations they are not equivalent to 4 year science or engineering educations

That statement makes absolutely zero sense. It appears you are trolling for someone to fruitlessly argue with over meaningless lesser educated opinions.

In any case, my point is that whatever education a recording engineer has doesn’t automatically bestow on him the right to win every argument even if the argument is right up his bowling alley.

OK, now I am lost… where or who is the recording engineer and what is he or she arguing about?

In defense of sound engineers, no one is ever too old to start a career in the recording sciences. Mr. Kait, with your aerospace degree I am thinking that mixing music, repairing and troubleshooting a ghost issue across a 72 channel recording console while taking orders from a producer should be “oh so easy”, after all according to these statements you personally already have a higher degree of education than that of a sound engineer - correct?

You above all others should show more respect for the people who work in the Recording Industry. You are always touting, marketing and retailing your ‘audio wares’ while making a living off the backs of those lesser educated sound engineers - are  you not?

Show some class dude.

Robert

Star Sound

How many have EEs, anyway, would you guess, 5%? 2%? 😛 They all have to do what their boss tells them, I hear. Even the EEs. 😀

Actually EEs are not that rare in the recording world. There also those that are entirely by gosh and by golly. But like any field, they also attend the school of hard knocks. So its unwise to assume that without an education that they also don't know what they are doing.

Just to clarify, even if there are some recording engineers with 4 year educations they are not equivalent to 4 year science or engineering educations, you know, like BA Physics or Aerospace Engineering or Engineering Physics or EE. That would be expecting a little too much, no? In any case, my point is that whatever education a recording engineer has doesn’t automatically bestow on him the right to win every argument even if the argument is right up his bowling alley.

I must also add I have tried the ground cable from T/T on Pre-Amp, when using standalone Phono. So if Cheater Plug works what is the procedure then?

An isolation power transformer might be used so as to isolate the grounds. Or you could send it back to the manufacturer and see if he can fix it. Hint: if you can measure the resistance between the chassis and the ground side of the RCA connectors and its about 1 ohm or less, then it is vulnerable to ground loop issues.

There are recording studios, recording engineers, mastering engineers, etc... who really go out of their way to use premium cables in their studios. Audiophile approved cables and gear.

There are, but as many recording engineers (many of whom do have a 4-year degree or more) know, if the balanced standard (AES file 48) is observed in the studio, there is no need for ’audiophile approved’ cables as Mogami, Canare and Belden cables will indeed work just fine, and by that I mean won’t sound any different then audiophile cables that cost $1000/foot.

Again, if you are hearing big differences between balanced line cables, what that means is your equipment is somehow failing to support the balanced standard.

The post is way over the top in projected falsehoods: cast and directed scorn, vitriol, and denigration, combined with unsubtle blunt force trauma delivered appeals to authority.

Actually the post to which you refer is pretty truthful whether we audiophiles like it or not. I straddle both sides of this issue, as I simultaneously operate a high end audio company where we routinely see cables making a difference (as I have previously harped, we see both balanced and single-ended operation with our gear) and I also run a recording studio complete with LP mastering capacity. In that studio we are careful to make sure that we do things that will result in good sound, but that does not include high end cables (don’t think we’ve not tried) as such is completely unnecessary if the balanced line standards are observed. This is a very easy thing to do in the studio, as the equipment designed for it observes AES file 48. So the sonic problems we encounter aren’t cable related- they are equipment related and usually pretty easy to spot.

I also agree that far too much compression is used! We had a guest engineer in our studio ruin a session because he over-used a compressor. Yuk.

Well, let’s be honest. Recording engineers get what, about two years of training? I wouldn’t necessarily call it an engineering education since they actually don’t take any of the real important and difficult engineering and science courses, you know, like dynamics or even statics, or thermodynamics, or nuclear engineering. Besides, isn’t it the recording engineers that have been aggressively compressing our favorite tunes for the last 20 years, with no let up in sight? Thanks a bunch, guys!

Recording studio’s and recording engineer’s could care less about
hypo/cryo nonsense. I find it amazing that we all buy our vinyl and CD’s
from companies whose master tape CD’s and master tape vinyl sound fabulous and guess what, just about all of these studio’s are using budget wire from Belden, Canare and Mogami for recording and mixing. Audiophiles love to speculate that they are more "technically" proficient and superior to well educated recording engineers and the recording industry, since they got their education from high end magazines, but the reality is Audiophiles live in denial and most do not have the technical education on the level of the best recording engineers and studios. Give me a break.

There are recording studios, recording engineers, mastering engineers, etc... who really go out of their way to use premium cables in their studios. Audiophile approved cables and gear.

The post is way over the top in projected falsehoods: cast and directed scorn, vitriol, and denigration, combined with unsubtle blunt force trauma delivered appeals to authority.

@atmasphere Thank you for taking the time. I must also add I have tried the ground cable from T/T on Pre-Amp, when using standalone Phono. So if Cheater Plug works what is the procedure then?

Thanks.

THANKS ALL!

I get buzzing if I use 2 sets of RCA cables with my standalone Phono stage. i.e. if I run RCA's from turntable into Phono and then I run RCA's into PreAmp I get buzzing. If I run Phono direct to Power Amps (phono has vol. control), no buzzing. Same if I go direct to Pre-Amp with inbuilt Phono no buzzing, but go standalone Phono into same Pre-Amp I get buzzing, so it appears two sets of RCA's from Phono sets off buzzing.

@initforthemusic This sounds like you may have a ground loop between the phono preamp and the line stage. This is usually caused by poor circuit grounding practice.

To test for this, try installing a ground cheater adapter, which you can get at the hardware store, and use it to lift the power cord ground connection on first the phono section, and then also try the power cord ground connection on the line stage. My guess is the phono stage will be the culprit.

Please note that you should not run the system this way as such can be a shock or fire hazard should things go wrong. This is just for test.

if I use the XLR>RCA adaptors from the RCA output of the Krell preamp to the PrimaLuna amp's RCA inputs will all be OK?

Maybe. I would talk to Krell about this, otherwise if in doubt use a Jensen transformer as suggested.

It might work okay, but I think i would be safer to buy a xlr to RCA transformer. Jensen makes a very nice one.
B

THEN (initforthemusic) if I use the XLR>RCA adaptors from the RCA output of the Krell preamp to the PrimaLuna amp's RCA inputs will all be OK?  I am using ;balanced cables.
Thanks upfront to all who help,
Dave

Balanced and single-ended (RCA) operations are inherently incompatible. So if RCAs are used its not balanced, and if the XLR outputs are used (and the preamp is properly balanced) then the use of the RCA connections will result in a buzz.

IOW its one or the other and never both, unless additional active circuitry is used.

The gain has nothing to do with it whatsoever. That is saying that to make something sound better, you just make it louder.

@atmasphere 

Are you able to expand on this further? I get buzzing if I use 2 sets of RCA cables with my standalone Phono stage. i.e. if I run RCA's from turntable into Phono and then I run RCA's into PreAmp I get buzzing. If I run Phono direct to Power Amps (phono has vol. control), no buzzing. Same if I go direct to Pre-Amp with inbuilt Phono no buzzing, but go standalone Phono into same Pre-Amp I get buzzing, so it appears two sets of RCA's from Phono sets off buzzing.

Thank you.

The incoming mono tube amps are PrimaLuna HPs
Thanks

You have to tell us what brand the amp is.
B

HELP - pls:
I have a preamp w/XLR and RCA outputs, new tube amps in transit that have only RCA inputs and existing balanced (Transparent w/box) ICs previously used w/ARC 210 tube amps.  I have Cardas XLR>RCA adapters on the way too. The distance from preamp > amp is about 1 meter)
I've read all of this thread (lots over my head) but am left with the question of whether using the adapters (to avoid more cable cost) is liable to hurt/help/or be null.  Please advise/inform me.
Thanks

Thanks Al,
It really helps (me at least) to have all that info in one coherent explanation.  

Wlutke, that’s sort of correct, but I would put it somewhat differently. In a good design an XLR cable will be provided with inverted and non-inverted signals, as you indicated, and those signals will be received a differential receiver circuit which responds to the instantaneous **difference** between the voltages of the two signals. Since the two signal wires in a properly designed XLR cable are twisted together, and the circuits they are connected to cause (or at least should cause) them to have equal impedances relative to ground, induced noise will be essentially identical in the two runs, and therefore there will be little or no difference between them, in terms of noise, for the differential receiver circuit to respond to.

In many designs it is also the case that the amplitude of each of the two signals in a balanced interconnection has the same amplitude as the single signal in an unbalanced RCA interconnection. In such a case the instantaneous difference in the amplitude received by a differential receiver circuit via an XLR connection will be twice the amplitude that would be received from a single-ended signal, resulting in the 6 dB difference in overall system gain that you referred to (assuming everything else is equal, including the setting of the volume control).

There are some lesser designs, however, which provide XLR connectors simply as a convenience feature, and provide that connector with just a single-ended signal and a ground. Also, in cases where a differential pair of signals is provided and received, the quality of the differential driver and receiver circuits may be less than optimal in some cases, and an RCA connection might provide superior results in those cases.

Regarding the grounding scheme, as indicated in the Rane application note which Atmasphere referred to in one of his posts dated 3-1-2018, ideally the shield of an XLR cable should be connected via pin 1 of the connector at each end to the chassis of the connected component. However for whatever reason many designs connect the shield via pin 1 to signal/circuit ground instead, which depending on other aspects of the design can result in some fraction of the signal current being conducted via the shield, in turn increasing sensitivity to cable differences as Ralph explained.

Regards,
-- Al

Is it true that the XLR cables carry both an inverted and non-inverted signal, and that the inverted signal is re-inverted and additive, resulting in the 6 dB gain and good for long runs?  Any externally induced noise in the wires is then out of phase (because of the last inversion) and self canceling - also good for long runs.  I thought those were the technical reasons for XLR.  How does the grounding scheme affect from a technical and musical standpoint?

true balanced mainly seem to belong to the marketing gimmicks...

@elizabeth ,
I disagree. From what Ralph/atmasphere has written, it is clear that a true balanced circuit-while not saying it sounds better, provides the means to transfer a signal with far less chance of being affected by noise or being affected by cable design.
I think this is why you are hearing differences between different cables. 

spending twice as much to build the same end result might be OK.

But, you ended up spending a lot of money buying cables.

And I see nothing which would make such designs a requirement for
better sound.

Again, I disagree. Designs like fully balanced, zero feedback and OTL, definitely do make a positive difference.
Though I have no doubt that you have an excellent stereo system, and a sensitive ear, I only wish we could compare our two systems. I think it would be enlightening for both of us.
Bob

@elizabeth, again.
Given the posts by Almarg and Atmasphere, do you consider your equipment to be fully balanced?
B

Just last year I bought a $3,100 XLR cable.
Seven meter Kimber KS1116

For that money you could get a preamp with high output (around 18 volts vs the regular 2 volts). A better higher output component will be unaffected by either the type of XLR cable and/or length. Usually it is interconnect capacitance that affects weak low cost consumer (low-fi) gear resulting in less dynamics. RCA is terrible but of course no serious audiophile would ever use RCA. 

Again it is sad to see folks misplacing blame on interconnects when it is the components that are at fault for any audible degradation.

I was wondering if/when this was going to happen? Was this wrong?

@stringreen 

Back to the intent of your post...

What are you using for power distribution? I’d maybe try an Ayre 5-Lxe in front of your source components. Yes, “Ayre-conditioning” is already part of each component of your Ayre stack, but I recall the late, great Charley Hansen touting the benefits of double-conditioning on another forum. I believe he claimed the transformation was so significant that the pairing of a 5-Lxe and an AX-7e was part of his personal reference system (before the R series was released). It’s why I use that factory-modified combo with my Vandersteen Quatro CTs. 

@elizabeth,
Though I respect Kimber, I would have a hard time justifying $3K for interconnects. 
Do you notice such a significant difference in sound reproduction?
And, I only say this as a question.
Bob

At least for me, Atmasphere, and Almarg have given all the information needed regarding balanced interconnects.
I think nrenter summed it up nicely, too.
So, would I buy an expensive XLR cable?
Probably not.
B

ronres

Do balanced interconnects, perhaps because of common mode noise rejection, tend to suppress even order harmonics?

I don't think so, or even understand how that could be possible.

handymann

Balanced cables are a huge asset ... You have two separate signal wires, both shielded by the woven mesh. This eliminates possible 60hz hum, or IR interference, that can and sometimes will present itself, when using SE cables.

Again, this is mistaken. The ability of a balanced cable to reject interference isn't because of shielding, which many balanced cables completely lack. Rather, it is the nature of the balanced connection itself and the common-mode rejection ratio that results. Shielding can very much be a benefit with single-ended cables, however.

When I started getting serious about this hobby in the 1980s, one didn't hear too much about cables. (At least I didn't; but then I wasn't looking.)
When I returned to the hobby in 2015 I ordered a NAD dedicated CD player. The dealer sold me a pair of AudioQuest Alpha Snake ICs for $24 to go with it. While I was waiting for the NAD to be delivered I put the Alpha Snakes on an old ADC CDP that it was replacing. I immediately had to turn the volume down on the amp. So I was convinced that the cheap ICs that came with the players were garbage. I was not convinced, however, that spending more than $25 was prudent. 

A few years later and my system became much more capable of revealing detail. I bought a pair of WireWorld Oasis 7s for about $100. They made an improvement in soundstage and carity from my Oppo BDP-95 through a Rotel Rx-1052 and Canton Ergos that I thought was not just my imagination. Later I replaced the Oasis 7s with inexpensive Gotham PUR XLRs. (now through a Primare I32) This was an improvement that I absolutely and immediately knew was not my imagination. Next I got some Zu Mission XLRs that I believe listed for about $215. I'm not sure I hear any improvement over the $35 Gothams, but this does not surprise me. I had thought that the nature of balanced circuits and cables is much more immune to cable differences than RCAs. Since I got the Zus for only $45, it was not an expensive experiment. It seems that some of the followers of this thread who are far more knowledgeable than I have confirmed my theory. I am insecure enough to take comfort in that.

Do balanced interconnects, perhaps because of common mode noise rejection, tend to suppress even order harmonics?

Could this be one reason some people feel single-ended connections sound more natural and musical than balanced connections?

As was mentioned above, the output of a "balanced circuit", if truly balanced, will almost always double the output voltage of that device. Just because a component has XLR connectors, doesn't mean the circuit is fully balanced.  I don't care when the term "balanced" was introduced, the outcome is the same. Balanced cables are a huge asset when running longer lengths, or when cris-crossing line voltage wiring.  You have two separate signal wires, both shielded by the woven mesh.  This eliminates possible 60hz hum, or IR interference, that can and sometimes will present itself, when using SE cables.  I wish my Rhea had balanced phono inputs, but as someone once said, " you can wish in one hand a shat in the other and see which one fills up first."  As far as SE phono interconnects, I found that when making my own, using 2 conductor with a messed shield, leaving the mesh out of the circuit on one end, will greatly improve the sound, by keeping the signal wires shielded from any interference that may be picked up from induction.  In the long run, no pun intended, whatever works best for you, is what you should use.  The original question was about different brands, not if balanced is better.  For me and my application, balanced works best for me.

@2channel,
+1

Bob

I'd like to thank @atmasphere and @almarg for participating whenever discussions involve balanced cables / components.

I've noticed a few assumptions that lead to confusion surrounding balanced cables / components. Here's how I generally cut to the chase:

1. XLR terminations on a cable do not (necessarily) mean the cable is of a balanced design. Sometimes the designers design to the "spec", sometimes they get close, sometimes they don't care.
   
2. XLR connectors on a component do not (necessarily) mean the component is of a balanced design. Sometimes the designers design to the "spec", sometimes they get close, sometimes they don't care.
   
3. When designers design to the balanced "spec", things play together with less variance due to the component interactions through the connections (and have less impact through noise that may be injected into the system). Everything else requires much more "trial and error" with regard component matching.

In summary, the value of balanced components using balanced cables (generally leveraging XLR terminations / connectors) designed to the the balanced "spec" are 2 fold:

1. What @cleeds states  - Common Mode Rejection Ratio. CMRR (in overly-simplifed terms) mean when noise enters the signal path, it affects the (+) and (-) legs identically. When the (-) signal is inverted and summed with the (+) signal, that noise magically cancels itself out.
   
2. The input (and output) impedance of the components are sufficiently low (or high, respectively) for generally optimal transfer of signal.
   

They don't require shielding to achieve low noise.

This is true- I've used balanced Kimber which has no shielding at all and over 30 feet, not hum/buzz whatsoever.

  transaudio

The reason most pros use XLR is noise floor- having a shield that encloses the positive and negative audio cable inside to protect it from outside noise. 

No, pros use balanced XLR cables because of their Common Mode Rejection Ratio - the very nature of a balanced circuit. They don't require shielding to achieve low noise. Unbalanced lines, however, often benefit from such shielding.

 

From a high end PRO perspective, there is just as much difference between high end and low end XLR cables as there is in high end and low end unbalanced RCA cables.  The cheapest XLR cables are absolute crap and roll off the top end and make the low end muddy, midrange cloudy- just like unbalanced cable. 

The reason most pros use XLR is noise floor- having a shield that encloses the positive and negative audio cable inside to protect it from outside noise.  In high density cities like New York, LA, Dallas, etc RF is everywhere and can make noise that shows up in the audio of an unbalanced system.  If a RF tower is near you that can sometimes create issues.  

Having a complete system balanced is key in high pressure environments, like a recording studio.  All you need is someone drive by with a big output RF device and your recording would be completely ruined.  This used to be common when CB radios where popular.    

Some like unbalanced better because HOW many designers balance their audio devices inputs and outputs can affect the sound quality of an audio device or signal chain of multiple audio devices.  

Some balanced cable is a spiral shield, and not 100% coverage of the audio cables within.  100% braided shield is the better method for RF protection but it can make the cable less flexible.

Electronically balanced input/output stages vary in sound quality depending on design.  THAT corp designs a great electronic balanced stage called OUTSMARTS we use an output stage of a mic preamp.  We still use a Jensen transformer on the mic input.   Transformer vs electronically balanced outputs do sound quite different.

If you run balanced cable and balanced devices and then insert one unbalanced device in the middle, the system is unbalanced at that point and any noise present is now in the audio path regardless of balancing later.  The shield just protects the audio cables within.  Remove the shield or reduce its coverage and the noise is back.  
       
High capacitance cable can be a problem, especially when used with a microphone.  The top end is affected by this build up of capacitance over its length.  Make sure you read the cable specs and avoid this high capacitance cable.

XLR cables in balanced rigs can be run long lengths noise free.  That does not mean they sound good over long runs.  There is HF loss or at least changes in HF audible with longer cable runs.   But in some cases like broadcast, it does not matter so much, the noise avoidance is the goal. 

Brad

The Cable Company in Ohio has complete charts of those mathematical values from each high end company for their amps and preamps. If you go into a broadcasting-recording supply house and buy inexpensive cable that matches the value numbers of those components you will be blown away at the performance of your gear."

I didn't want to say anything at the time, but this is so wrong in so many ways. TheCableCo. is not in Ohio, not that it matters much, but this falsehood sets the tone for what follows. I can only hazard a guess that the "values" he mentions pertains to output impedance and input impedance but those "values" have nothing to do with matching cables to components. People say all kinds of weird things on the internet and it is best to just smile and ignore. I have just broken from that wisdom. 

Through my many years being in the audio business, and listening to an even greater extent I always return to unbalanced interconnect cables for betters sound. Fortunately my Audio Research amplifiers and line stages have provisions for both so it makes a good test. I've done nearly all of my A/B testing using the same brand XLR vs. unbalnaced (RCA) connectors.

In my experience moving to balanced from single ended prodiced a slight increase in articulation, most noticeably in the bass.

When running mic cables in my distant past, of 100m or more balanced was the way. And transformer balanced , too.
From a low impedance (100 ohms ) would keep the system quiet even after crossing and running alongside hundreds
of power cables.
IC balancing was cheaper but not as effective in industrial use.

Slaw....I hear the "metallic" sound from all sources.   I tried many mats and insist my bare Classic platter is best for me.