Sorry guy, but you are wrong here. Run full range you are correct but not high passed at 100 Hz, 48 dB/oct. The little woofers become a super midrange driver. I have set up many of these systems and they handle peaks absolutely fine up to a reasonably loud volume according to my ear which is used to listening to a very large 8500 watt system. 200 Watts will get you 106 dB with an 83 dB efficient speaker, more than enough to handle peaks from a comfortably loud 95 dB. No, they will not handle peaks with the grace of a large system at high volume like yours or mine, but they are an easy match for most dynamic tower systems and with the right subwoofers will have even better bass. More importantly, in a well treated room they will image better than most speakers which was always the attraction, for me at least. I remember the first time I listened to them at the store back in 1978. They were casting a better image than most of the larger speakers in the store, as long as you could manage without any bass. The real magic did not come along until we had digital crossovers with high order slopes for subwoofers.
Big speakers, are they really the best way to get great sound?
Yesterday, I had the opportunity to listen to some very large speakers that are considered to be at, or close to, the pinnacle in speaker design and ability. Needless to say, the speakers retail in the mid to high $300k range. These speakers, and I will not be naming them, were sourced by about $800k of upstream gear. Room size was about thirty by twenty, maybe a little larger.
To say the the overall sound was BIG would be accurate, but also I noticed something else, that I typically hear with big speaker systems. Generally, the speakers were right on edge of overloading the room, depending on music, the dreaded bass boom could be heard. But, the whole presentation was greater in impact than most any smaller speaker system, yet it was almost unlistenable for the long term.
The question I asked myself, is do we really want this type of presentation in our home audio systems? The speakers threw a pretty large soundstage, but also made things sound somewhat larger than life. I also thought that this type of speaker is akin to the large box dynamic speakers of yesteryear. For example, a set of large horns from Altec Lansing or similar was reminiscent of this sound. Makes me believe that if one has a big room, a similar sound can be obtained from most any large speaker system and at a fraction of the price.
I listen in a very small room, and by necessity in the near field, yet I think the overall intimacy of this type of listening experience is better for me, your thoughts?
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An acoustic revolution of biblical proportion is in the making , you are right on this one ... But we dont need a revolution in field theory for that perhaps the incoming A.I. will help for sure but we must wait for this A.I. help for a couple of years for now .. ...😊 Dr.Choueiri is the real deal for now and he works is in acoustics...I dont think that his plasma physics doctorate was needed for his BACCH filters revolution ( acoustics is his hobby) ...
I trust you on this too ... You know why ? 😁 Because with my system in my first dedicated room , among other things , tuned with 100 mechanically adjusted Helmholtz resonators the imaging and the soundstage was encompassing the listener position , and for some recording , because it is recording dependant for sure , the sound was coming behind me too and filled the room ... it is called acoustical control of the room , mechanical control and with some DSP tool it can help , but i was using none in my case ...😁 The money value of my system was low : Sansui amplifier, Mission speakers Cyrus, french battery dac SPS...Nothing miraculous with the gear but nothing too bad either ... Myself unlike you as you said , i understood precisely why my system/room was doing what it was doing , because all was born from a mechanical tunable treatment and controls parameters of the room for my ears location, it is called acoustics with an (s ) ... Was it perfect ? No ...Was it stunnning ? yes ... Try this audiophile top level recording in any controlled room and you will hear voices all around you even behind if there is mechanical right controls in place , the recording is the FIRST main spatial information source not the speakers choice... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR33bL5aNTk&t=2244s No system/speakers can do anything without ears and room double controls ( mechanical and electronical as for the BACCH filters) and you need good recording for sure by the way ... I dont doubt a second by the way that you gear is way better than mine but so good it could be it does not replace system/room/ears control for the spatial information translation ... To reach perfection here we need Choueiri BACCH filters ...It is the beginning of the revolution you spoke about ...more to come for sure ...
Acoustics is the sleeping princess and the kissing prince is your ears/brain , the gear system is only the 7 working dwarves ... |
@phusis, your horns look impressive and I'm sure sound the same. This format is rare to see these days and probably intentionally overlooked because of their appearance and also because no retailer would be prepared to stock non-sellers. Pity. I've heard and helped with 2 systems, an Edgar Horn and an Altec VOTT and decided then that one day I would build something similar and to this end was interested in Tom Danley's design but has not happened yet. Regarding the BBC LS3/5A monitor, it is, IMO, overpriced and over hyped. The original used a Kef B110 mid/bass with a, by today's standard, rough peaky response which required some clever application of notch filters to tame the rising impedance and poor out of band irregularities. This then needed an XO with many components which will even with the best parts suffer. Today with improved technology drivers can be found with smooth roll off extending for a few octaves beyond the chosen knee, vastly simplifying XO design and requiring fewer components resulting in a more natural and for want of a better description, an easier and more rewarding listen. To me the little squeaker, I mean speaker, sounds dynamically constipated. Apologies to all you LS3/5A junkies. It is amazing how something like the above speaker takes on a position and reputation far beyond its merit, simply because it is so often praised even by folks who have never heard them. Crazy. There are kit speakers available for 1/3 the cost that outperform them. |
@mijostyn wrote:
We'll have to remember that's a best case, theoretical estimate - at 1 meter, mind you - that doesn't account for the unavoidable thermal compression (subtract several dB's here at full tilt). Run full-range these speakers come with a 30-80 watt amp recommendation, so pouring 200 watts into them will have those small voice coils + filter components, even high-passing the woofer/mids, becoming hotter than damnation itself with prolonged treatment of this kind. I know, that's a at-the-end-of-their-ropes scenario one would normally avoid with such speakers, and for the more typical listening sessions they'll do fine - certainly high-passed. I've only heard them full-range at a fairly close distance, and with regard to tonality, voice authenticity and soundstaging at moderate SPL's they're very good. As I wrote earlier, and what you indicated as well: within their confinements... @lemonhaze wrote:
Thank you. And yes, the look of the EV's (and subs) is likely off-putting for many of the audiophile inclined, seeing these are intended to be placed (and hidden) behind perforated cinema screens; that's raw functionalism out in the open originally intended to fill large theater spaces with sound at prodigious SPL's. It's pro segment, so there's no exposition in anything hifi-related. I was lucky to be around when they (and other EV siblings) became available from a cinema in Germany following Atmos upgrades that came as whole-package deals, and thus replaced all of the existing speakers.
Never heard the Edgar Horns. Did they come with the Seismic(?) subs as well? My Tapped Horn subs are actually a Danley patent (DIY'ers are allowed to make their own iterations). Which of the Danley's designs do you consider - the Synergy horns? They're on my "to-do" list sometime in the future.. |
@mihorn: I will compare to any audio system in the world. Please you show me any audio system’s live recording video sounds better than mine. Alex/Wavetouch audio
OK, I've heard your videos and I’ll play. I cobbled these together with used professional JBL PA parts (2241H, 2251J) and Heil AMTs that I modified. The crossovers are of my design and use Audyn Q4 caps, heavy air core chokes, and Dale 1% resistors. Total cost was under $1,500. I’ve done some work on them since the video was made. Unfortunately, you can’t hear the soundstage and imaging which is stellar outshining anything I or others have ever heard. So who decides and what do I win?
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