Bryston 4B3 vs Mac MC462 vs Pass Labs X250.8, OR... GRYPHON Diablo 300?

Hi xsparky the Torus sounds interesting.  Others have said to plug the Diablo direct to the wall as conditioners sometimes can’t provide enough juice for the Diablo’s large current needs.  Including advice higher up in this thread.  I also saw an example at a HiFi show where a conditioner ruined the Diablo’s performance, and they realized this too late.  But I guess the Torus is different and provides higher current than others?  Also, according to a dealer I spoke with, high quality power cords also manage “pollution” caused by the stereo gear itself.  In particular digital components which apparently are extra noisy.

If lucky less, if not so lucky more, but I would say that $20k integrated with dac and phono and even without them would require at least $2k power cord. Gryphon people themselves consider power cord an important element. I would try three brands - Gryphon, Purist Audio and Stage III. Conditioner, any conditioner, would be very tricky or not needed at all. In any case, great power cord comes first.

Hi Nyev!

May I ask if the dealer that you referred to is in Vancouver? And the demo that you referred to...for 19k US, did that include the GST? I have been emailing back and forth with a (actually the one and only!) dealer in Canada and there is a demo available there with both the phono stage and the DAC...but it is higher than 19k (even if I do the conversion and add GST, my given price is still higher than what it looks like you may have been offered. I also wonder if this could possibly be the same demo...Also, how do you like internal DAC???
Thanks and all the best!!!
Kevin 

Hi Kevin,
It was a while back now so I cannot recall if the 19K included the GST.  Yes the dealer is the one in Vancouver. 

If it's a different unit than the one that was there at the time, the dealer will need to price it in accordance with how much they spent to get the demo unit.  For example for the demo I was looking at, they may have acquired it at a lower cost. Having said that, feel free to negotiate but also to be fair, you should be willing to walk away if they don't agree to your price.

About demo units, be advised:  The dealer may not know the history of the unit in question; it may have had many previous lives as a traveling demo for all you know.  They couldn't confirm the history for me of the demo they had at the time, which for me made it a non-starter (could have traveled the world at conferences, etc). They had bought the demo from Gryphon who had previously used it as a demo I think.
In general I'm still totally satisfied that I purchased the best amp (considering separates or integrated) that I could for the price, for my tastes.  And that doesn't happen often with me - I'm not one to be positively biased simply because I've spent a lot on something.  In fact it's usually the opposite as I have such high expectations relative to cost.  Couldn't ask for a better amp really, and I can't believe I actually was looking at Bryston / McIntosh before, considering you'd end up spending a similar amount of money for separates / interconnects / power cables.  Just watched "Knives Out" last night and saw a McIntosh CD player featured in a scene, and thought "thank god I went with the Diablo".  No offense to McIntosh or Bryston fans; it's all subjective to personal taste. 

I can't say too much about the DAC module as I don't have extensive experience testing DAC's.  All I know is I am blown away comparing it with my standalone Arcam irDAC that I was using before (which to be fair is a very highly regarded DAC but way, way less expensive than the Gryphon module).  I'm really happy with the DAC but I wouldn't trust my advice here given my limited DAC testing experience.  It is super cliche but the Gryphon module sounds far more "analog" than my Arcam irDAC which sounded thinner and not as fully fleshed out in comparison.  And, you get to take advantage of the magic blue flashing light that indicates the DAC module's super-cap is charging (for a minute or a bit longer after amp startup), which supposedly improves sound by ensuring the DAC is not relying on the digital source for USB power.  That said, if I listen to music for the minute or so when the blue light is flashing, meaning that the super-cap is still charging and therefore USB is still powered by the source, I hear no improvement at all after I hear the faint click of a relay and the blue light stops flashing.  Maybe because my Innuos digital source already has a high-quality power supply for the USB?  Who knows.  Not sure if the improvement is supposed to be due to the quality of USB power, or the fact that power comes from one circuit with better grounding, or something like that...  If anyone knows what Gryphon's theory is around the benefit of the super-cap is (beyond the high-level marketing explanation), I'd be interested to know what my flashing blue light is actually doing for me!

Good luck Kevin! 

Hello Nyev and thank you so very much for the prompt and informative response! I honestly thought that because the thread was almost a year old that you would not have even seen my inquiry...thanks for keeping your eyes peeled!

A little history of my dilemma and hoping that I may be able to glean a little more help/guidance from you. Presently I have McIntosh separates. C1100 preamp and MC 452 amp. I know that you have reported that the 452 was not anywhere near in the same league as the 300 (excellent to know!!!). My problem is that I’m debating whether to divest myself of all my Mac gear and go with the 300, or if a move to the Mac 611 mono blocks could bring me to that nice sweet spot. I can’t really find any comparisons of the Diablo versus the 611’s (601’s for that matter) and where I live makes auditioning prohibitive...and actually impossible to demo a 300 as there are no dealers in Ontario. Wondering if you have any insight...?

Also, did you have the opportunity to negotiate a better price for the new 300 and the DAC compared to the retail prices that are on the web? I know that the demo pricing looks good (after reading your response to my message I emailed the dealer inquiring of the history of the unit...thanks!), but if I do decide on a 300 and not the demo available, I’m wondering if our Canadian dealer is willing to negotiate!

Thanks again, Nyev!!!

Kevin

p.s. Think the Diablo is your “end game” as I have seen that term used often to refer to, “I’ve found Nirvana!!!”?

Yes I found the McIntosh separates really un-engaging in comparison with the Diablo.  I went into the at-home testing with quite a lot of respect and expectations of the McIntosh brand.  But after the test I can't view McIntosh in the same light.  Not really fair to McIntosh as I think my feeling is that there is nothing materially wrong with the brand, but rather the Diablo 300 is just punching way above its weight, in an integrated package which further decreases cost and increases value.  I'm sure it can't touch far more expensive Gryphon separates, but I think the Diablo strives to be comparable at that level.
Having said this I don't have experience with the McIntosh mono blocks so I can't really comment, other than you would need to factor in the cost of all the upgraded interconnects and power cables, which are an absolute must (and will cost thousands for decent cables). For all non-believers do a blind test, and then comment.  My non-audiophile wife can easily hear the differences in blind tests, even if she has a funny way of verbalizing what she hears. Also I just found the build quality of the McIntosh preamps to be a bit light and chintzy.  It is light, it doesn't feel solid, and the screws on the chassis are not even flush mounted.  Based on my experience with McIntosh brand, my totally subjective biased instinct would be to move away from McIntosh and not consider the mono's, but really that is not fair advice considering my lack of experience with the mono's.  I'm biased based on my test and also because I'm totally satisfied with the Diablo.

You'll probably hate hearing this, but just like so many have said, I suggest taking a flight to Vancouver (quickly before Coronavirus takes over the country lol) and listening. The Gryphon dealer would be happy to arrange a head-to-head test between the Diablo 300 and the McIntosh mono blocks - give them advance warning and provide a Tidal playlist ahead of time, and they'll have it set up for you when you arrive.  Fortunately I did not have to fly, but I was totally prepared to if needed (after saving additional funds).  You can't possibly make the best decision for you without going to listen, so you can't look at the travel cost, which I know are high, as wasted money.  And even then it's still not perfect as it's different speakers and different rooms, which messed with me a bit.  There was definitely a bit of a leap of faith at the end, but you want to narrow that leap as much as possible.  Don't know if you'll take me up on this, but if you do go, make sure to go multiple times on the trip with a break in between, even if on the same day.  Traveling is hectic and psychologically there is pressure on extracting everything you can from your senses in a brief listening session, and that does not provide a very good quieting / leveling of your auditory perception with all of those factors going on.  The first time I went I traveled a short distance, and arrived after meeting with family, in between events, and realized I was dehydrated.  I left with completely wrong conclusions and at first decided I wasn't going to proceed.  I went back another time, totally relaxed (and hydrated), and things came together and I had a much better assessment of what I was perceiving.  I had to trust that the slight niggles I still had with the sound were more related to the speakers at the dealer, and once I got the Diablo home I was thankful that my gut was right.  Sounded perfect to me even before burn-in.

Almost every retail item at this price point is negotiable, so yes I did negotiate.  But you should follow your own path on the price points to negotiate; wouldn't be fair of me to disclose what the dealer let it go for.  Just know that they have some margin baked into the retail cost and that is flexible to a point.  Don't get greedy and just offer a fair offer that's a bit lower than asking.  They will counter your offer of course, so expect that and it's up to you if you want to stick to your guns.
The Diablo 300 exceeds all of my expectations and I don't see how I'd possibly ever need to reevaluate.  At some point when financially viable I need to find the equivalent for speakers - but that's a ways off.  Currently my system sounds incredible, but I do recognize that performance is now limited by what my 803 d2's can do.  Great speakers for me, but they are about a third of the value of the Diablo 300 so there are some inherent constraints in the detail the Diablo can push through them, etc.  The Diablo signature sound is definitely present even when testing different speakers at the dealer - it sort of takes over, in a very good way.

Nyev,

Once more, thank you so much. Your analysis is most helpful and I truly appreciate all the guidance you have given me. Rather than fly out west, my wife and I are planning a little trip down to New York to set up an audition. It’s by appointment only, but they do have both McIntosh and Gryphon, so a head to head battle sounds like fun! By the way, the gentleman that I have been corresponding with at the dealer in Vancouver has been incredibly helpful and has been very prompt in answering all my emails. He basically said that I cannot go wrong with either the Diablo or the 611’s with my C1100 preamp. He was quite descriptive in the attributes of both. BUT...he did say to get the desired sound out of the Mac equipment, I would need to, as you have stated Nyev, is drop some serious scratch for the power cords and interconnects. He also stated, however, that once, “you’ve been hooked by the tone of the Gryphon, there’s no going back,”. He also said that I would need a stack of 5 boxes with all the power cords and interconnects to equal the performance of the Diablo. He said the Diablo, “cannot be touched for an all-in-one package”. So...looks like I’m getting closer and closer to being overtaken by the impressive Dane...

All the best Nyev,

Kevin

Great plan regarding tying in with a New York trip.  I also had almost considered visiting the New York Gryphon/McIntosh store when I was auditioning.
A lot of sales-y comments from the Vancouver shop regarding the Diablo, but that said I tend to agree with them.
From what I've seen in forums, reviews, and talking with many experienced people on this board, the Diablo's "tone" is highly regarded, but keep in mind there are a very, very small number of people who don't the Gryphon house sound.  So you do need to hear it yourself.  Still I'd be surprised if you don't love it.  I typically don't prefer warmer sounding equipment, because in my experience it's been less detailed, bloated, slow, and veiled.  The Gryphon's tone manages to be warm, yet at the same time with very responsive, rich high-resolution detail at all frequencies, including right down to the lowest bass frequencies.  This makes it very engaging yet very easy to listen to at the same time.

Please post the results of the head to head test with the 601's!  To be honest I find audio gear testing more stressful than fun - because I find I really struggle to make sense of what I am perceiving over a short amount of time.  For me at least, it takes a ton of focus and concentration to get to a point where I have some reliable conclusions on the sound I am hearing, to the extent where I am confident I won't have a different opinion after days of use.  I can get there, but it takes work.  If I take it lightly, I find my first impression is totally thrown out the window after extended use.  Thankfully that's all over and I am just listening to music when I use my system now, and not endlessly trying to pick apart what I am hearing!
Good luck!

Right on, Nyev! It’s about the music, man!!!
Thank you again for all your help...and I will definitely post how the audition goes.

Until then...happy listening, sir!
All the best,

Kevin

I had a MC452 connected to Magnepan 3.7s then 20.7s.  It had a bias issue so my dealer loaned me a pair of 601’s which I compaired to a Sanders Magtech, the Magtech totally outperformed the 452 and the 601s, much deeper and solid base, like adding a sub to a system.  A few years later I borrorwed a 4b3 and that out performed the Magtech by a larger margin than the Sanders over the 452/601s.  I wanted a little more punch than the 4b3 so thats been upgraded to a 14b3 which is a beast.  The only amps I would consider over the 14b3 would be a Burmester 911 or a D’agostino Momentum and they would have to prove themselves on my system before I would commit.  The 14b3 specs (which is not everything) are better than all the amps listed here.  Someone on this thread said Bryston is not high end, not sure where that thought came from but IMHO Bryston rocks and can handle any speaker out there.

nyev OP
Diablo’s "tone" is highly regarded, but keep in mind there are a very, very small number of people who don’t the Gryphon house sound.

Gryphon amps are to closest sound to a big pure Class-A linear amp with an iron fist for bass control, without having to go pure Class-A.
If this is a "house sound" then count me in, as that’s the kind of sound that is big controlled and 3 dimensional and washes over you, that never sounds like it’s emitting from the speakers, it feels like you can get up out of your chair and walk into the sound stage. Some very good tubes can do this but they fall down with hard loads and bass grip.

Cheers George

Yes, the "house sound" is as you stated George, and I appreciate all the elements you noted with the Gryphon sound.  For those very, very finite few who dislike this sound, based on what these people have said I suspect it may be the "controlled" element you noted, or possibly the very slightly "dark" tone in comparison to an amp that may be more raw sounding.  Having said that I find the Diablo 300 to magically contradict itself with these tonal elements.  What I mean by that is that while the sound is noticeably "controlled" at the very same time it is also very dynamic and engaging, likely due to having a very quick slew rate.  "Sudden" sounds jump out and are very alive sounding compared with other amps I tested, but at the same time there is that controlled element that is often cited with Gryphon's sound.  I'd also agree the tone might be slightly "dark" as some have noted, but at the same time, there are loads of dense detail, even when my system is probably limited in this area by my B&W 803 D2 speakers. 

After a year of owning the Diablo 300 I'm every bit as happy with it now and just blown away by the sound quality versus what my experience has been with other amps.  After living with it during this time, I'm still finding nothing at all I can find fault with whatsoever, and in fact I'm still regularly taken aback by how good the sound quality is.  The two areas that have probably made the biggest impact for me in day-to-day use that really go a long way in preserving all positive aspects of the experience are 1) The fact that all positive elements of the sound remain perfectly intact at very low listening volumes - I've not experienced this attribute to this extent with any other amplifiers before, and 2) The fact that all positive elements of the sound remain MOSTLY intact with any material you can throw at it, including poorer quality recordings.  I think the Diablo's slightly "dark" tone can help with this (while amazingly retaining high-frequency detail), where I find other more "raw" amps just totally ruin the experience to the extent recordings can easily become unlistenable. 

Regarding McIntosh and Bryston - the amps I tested from these brands (MC452 and 4B3), at this point I won't try to peg these in a class of high-endedness, but rather, just comment on my experience with them.  To be blunt, I felt McIntosh was fine by boring and unengaging.  I also just wasn't a fan of the physical build when inspected up-close (looks great from a distance).  This was surprising for me as I had anticipated really enjoying the McIntosh sound.  I found Bryston's 4B3 amp to be much more engaging, with great bass and power.  However, while the 4B3 is supposedly far less harsh than prior generation of Bryston's, I nevertheless found it a bit tiring to listen to for extended periods, and also far more intolerant of poorer recordings.  Nevertheless, I consider the 4B3 a better buy than the MC452 as it's more engaging.
Despite my negative comments on McIntosh and Bryston, two things to note are that these are my subjective experiences I'm sharing, and also, I'm comparing it with Gryphon which generally targets a MUCH higher range (in terms of price) market.  The Diablo is really a "value" offering from Gryphon when comparing the astronomical price points of their separate components. 

I appreciate all the elements you noted with the Gryphon sound. For those very, very finite few who dislike this sound

To me they like slightly "sterile" in your face etched sound that you can detect emitting from the speakers drivers, this is to me is a "house sound"

Bryston’s, I nevertheless found it a bit tiring to listen to for extended periods

You just said it!

Cheers George

I wonder how the boulder 1160 (with no pre maybe) would stack up against gryphon diablo 300.

Hi Nyev!
Just curious...have you ever set up anything to have a listen to your phono module? Possibly thinking about upgrading to the new module...? 
I’ve very much enjoyed reading your various threads dedicated to your Gryphon Diablo 300!

Kindest regards,

Kevin