Hi Nyev!
Just curious...have you ever set up anything to have a listen to your phono module? Possibly thinking about upgrading to the new module...?
I’ve very much enjoyed reading your various threads dedicated to your Gryphon Diablo 300!
Kindest regards,
Kevin |
I wonder how the boulder 1160 (with no pre maybe) would stack up against gryphon diablo 300.
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I appreciate all the elements you noted with the Gryphon sound. For those very, very finite few who dislike this sound To me they like slightly "sterile" in your face etched sound that you can detect emitting from the speakers drivers, this is to me is a "house sound" Bryston’s, I nevertheless found it a bit tiring to listen to for extended periods
You just said it! Cheers George |
Yes, the "house sound" is as you stated George, and I appreciate all the elements you noted with the Gryphon sound. For those very, very finite few who dislike this sound, based on what these people have said I suspect it may be the "controlled" element you noted, or possibly the very slightly "dark" tone in comparison to an amp that may be more raw sounding. Having said that I find the Diablo 300 to magically contradict itself with these tonal elements. What I mean by that is that while the sound is noticeably "controlled" at the very same time it is also very dynamic and engaging, likely due to having a very quick slew rate. "Sudden" sounds jump out and are very alive sounding compared with other amps I tested, but at the same time there is that controlled element that is often cited with Gryphon's sound. I'd also agree the tone might be slightly "dark" as some have noted, but at the same time, there are loads of dense detail, even when my system is probably limited in this area by my B&W 803 D2 speakers.
After a year of owning the Diablo 300 I'm every bit as happy with it now and just blown away by the sound quality versus what my experience has been with other amps. After living with it during this time, I'm still finding nothing at all I can find fault with whatsoever, and in fact I'm still regularly taken aback by how good the sound quality is. The two areas that have probably made the biggest impact for me in day-to-day use that really go a long way in preserving all positive aspects of the experience are 1) The fact that all positive elements of the sound remain perfectly intact at very low listening volumes - I've not experienced this attribute to this extent with any other amplifiers before, and 2) The fact that all positive elements of the sound remain MOSTLY intact with any material you can throw at it, including poorer quality recordings. I think the Diablo's slightly "dark" tone can help with this (while amazingly retaining high-frequency detail), where I find other more "raw" amps just totally ruin the experience to the extent recordings can easily become unlistenable.
Regarding McIntosh and Bryston - the amps I tested from these brands (MC452 and 4B3), at this point I won't try to peg these in a class of high-endedness, but rather, just comment on my experience with them. To be blunt, I felt McIntosh was fine by boring and unengaging. I also just wasn't a fan of the physical build when inspected up-close (looks great from a distance). This was surprising for me as I had anticipated really enjoying the McIntosh sound. I found Bryston's 4B3 amp to be much more engaging, with great bass and power. However, while the 4B3 is supposedly far less harsh than prior generation of Bryston's, I nevertheless found it a bit tiring to listen to for extended periods, and also far more intolerant of poorer recordings. Nevertheless, I consider the 4B3 a better buy than the MC452 as it's more engaging.
Despite my negative comments on McIntosh and Bryston, two things to note are that these are my subjective experiences I'm sharing, and also, I'm comparing it with Gryphon which generally targets a MUCH higher range (in terms of price) market. The Diablo is really a "value" offering from Gryphon when comparing the astronomical price points of their separate components.
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nyev OP
Diablo’s "tone" is highly regarded, but keep in mind there are a very, very small number of people who don’t the Gryphon house sound. Gryphon amps are to closest sound to a big pure Class-A linear amp with an iron fist for bass control, without having to go pure Class-A. If this is a "house sound" then count me in, as that’s the kind of sound that is big controlled and 3 dimensional and washes over you, that never sounds like it’s emitting from the speakers, it feels like you can get up out of your chair and walk into the sound stage. Some very good tubes can do this but they fall down with hard loads and bass grip. Cheers George |
I had a MC452 connected to Magnepan 3.7s then 20.7s. It had a bias issue so my dealer loaned me a pair of 601’s which I compaired to a Sanders Magtech, the Magtech totally outperformed the 452 and the 601s, much deeper and solid base, like adding a sub to a system. A few years later I borrorwed a 4b3 and that out performed the Magtech by a larger margin than the Sanders over the 452/601s. I wanted a little more punch than the 4b3 so thats been upgraded to a 14b3 which is a beast. The only amps I would consider over the 14b3 would be a Burmester 911 or a D’agostino Momentum and they would have to prove themselves on my system before I would commit. The 14b3 specs (which is not everything) are better than all the amps listed here. Someone on this thread said Bryston is not high end, not sure where that thought came from but IMHO Bryston rocks and can handle any speaker out there. |
Right on, Nyev! It’s about the music, man!!!
Thank you again for all your help...and I will definitely post how the audition goes.
Until then...happy listening, sir!
All the best,
Kevin
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Great plan regarding tying in with a New York trip. I also had almost considered visiting the New York Gryphon/McIntosh store when I was auditioning.
A lot of sales-y comments from the Vancouver shop regarding the Diablo, but that said I tend to agree with them.
From what I've seen in forums, reviews, and talking with many experienced people on this board, the Diablo's "tone" is highly regarded, but keep in mind there are a very, very small number of people who don't the Gryphon house sound. So you do need to hear it yourself. Still I'd be surprised if you don't love it. I typically don't prefer warmer sounding equipment, because in my experience it's been less detailed, bloated, slow, and veiled. The Gryphon's tone manages to be warm, yet at the same time with very responsive, rich high-resolution detail at all frequencies, including right down to the lowest bass frequencies. This makes it very engaging yet very easy to listen to at the same time.
Please post the results of the head to head test with the 601's! To be honest I find audio gear testing more stressful than fun - because I find I really struggle to make sense of what I am perceiving over a short amount of time. For me at least, it takes a ton of focus and concentration to get to a point where I have some reliable conclusions on the sound I am hearing, to the extent where I am confident I won't have a different opinion after days of use. I can get there, but it takes work. If I take it lightly, I find my first impression is totally thrown out the window after extended use. Thankfully that's all over and I am just listening to music when I use my system now, and not endlessly trying to pick apart what I am hearing!
Good luck! |
Nyev,
Once more, thank you so much. Your analysis is most helpful and I truly appreciate all the guidance you have given me. Rather than fly out west, my wife and I are planning a little trip down to New York to set up an audition. It’s by appointment only, but they do have both McIntosh and Gryphon, so a head to head battle sounds like fun! By the way, the gentleman that I have been corresponding with at the dealer in Vancouver has been incredibly helpful and has been very prompt in answering all my emails. He basically said that I cannot go wrong with either the Diablo or the 611’s with my C1100 preamp. He was quite descriptive in the attributes of both. BUT...he did say to get the desired sound out of the Mac equipment, I would need to, as you have stated Nyev, is drop some serious scratch for the power cords and interconnects. He also stated, however, that once, “you’ve been hooked by the tone of the Gryphon, there’s no going back,”. He also said that I would need a stack of 5 boxes with all the power cords and interconnects to equal the performance of the Diablo. He said the Diablo, “cannot be touched for an all-in-one package”. So...looks like I’m getting closer and closer to being overtaken by the impressive Dane...
All the best Nyev,
Kevin
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Yes I found the McIntosh separates really un-engaging in comparison with the Diablo. I went into the at-home testing with quite a lot of respect and expectations of the McIntosh brand. But after the test I can't view McIntosh in the same light. Not really fair to McIntosh as I think my feeling is that there is nothing materially wrong with the brand, but rather the Diablo 300 is just punching way above its weight, in an integrated package which further decreases cost and increases value. I'm sure it can't touch far more expensive Gryphon separates, but I think the Diablo strives to be comparable at that level.
Having said this I don't have experience with the McIntosh mono blocks so I can't really comment, other than you would need to factor in the cost of all the upgraded interconnects and power cables, which are an absolute must (and will cost thousands for decent cables). For all non-believers do a blind test, and then comment. My non-audiophile wife can easily hear the differences in blind tests, even if she has a funny way of verbalizing what she hears. Also I just found the build quality of the McIntosh preamps to be a bit light and chintzy. It is light, it doesn't feel solid, and the screws on the chassis are not even flush mounted. Based on my experience with McIntosh brand, my totally subjective biased instinct would be to move away from McIntosh and not consider the mono's, but really that is not fair advice considering my lack of experience with the mono's. I'm biased based on my test and also because I'm totally satisfied with the Diablo.
You'll probably hate hearing this, but just like so many have said, I suggest taking a flight to Vancouver (quickly before Coronavirus takes over the country lol) and listening. The Gryphon dealer would be happy to arrange a head-to-head test between the Diablo 300 and the McIntosh mono blocks - give them advance warning and provide a Tidal playlist ahead of time, and they'll have it set up for you when you arrive. Fortunately I did not have to fly, but I was totally prepared to if needed (after saving additional funds). You can't possibly make the best decision for you without going to listen, so you can't look at the travel cost, which I know are high, as wasted money. And even then it's still not perfect as it's different speakers and different rooms, which messed with me a bit. There was definitely a bit of a leap of faith at the end, but you want to narrow that leap as much as possible. Don't know if you'll take me up on this, but if you do go, make sure to go multiple times on the trip with a break in between, even if on the same day. Traveling is hectic and psychologically there is pressure on extracting everything you can from your senses in a brief listening session, and that does not provide a very good quieting / leveling of your auditory perception with all of those factors going on. The first time I went I traveled a short distance, and arrived after meeting with family, in between events, and realized I was dehydrated. I left with completely wrong conclusions and at first decided I wasn't going to proceed. I went back another time, totally relaxed (and hydrated), and things came together and I had a much better assessment of what I was perceiving. I had to trust that the slight niggles I still had with the sound were more related to the speakers at the dealer, and once I got the Diablo home I was thankful that my gut was right. Sounded perfect to me even before burn-in.
Almost every retail item at this price point is negotiable, so yes I did negotiate. But you should follow your own path on the price points to negotiate; wouldn't be fair of me to disclose what the dealer let it go for. Just know that they have some margin baked into the retail cost and that is flexible to a point. Don't get greedy and just offer a fair offer that's a bit lower than asking. They will counter your offer of course, so expect that and it's up to you if you want to stick to your guns.
The Diablo 300 exceeds all of my expectations and I don't see how I'd possibly ever need to reevaluate. At some point when financially viable I need to find the equivalent for speakers - but that's a ways off. Currently my system sounds incredible, but I do recognize that performance is now limited by what my 803 d2's can do. Great speakers for me, but they are about a third of the value of the Diablo 300 so there are some inherent constraints in the detail the Diablo can push through them, etc. The Diablo signature sound is definitely present even when testing different speakers at the dealer - it sort of takes over, in a very good way.
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Hello Nyev and thank you so very much for the prompt and informative response! I honestly thought that because the thread was almost a year old that you would not have even seen my inquiry...thanks for keeping your eyes peeled!
A little history of my dilemma and hoping that I may be able to glean a little more help/guidance from you. Presently I have McIntosh separates. C1100 preamp and MC 452 amp. I know that you have reported that the 452 was not anywhere near in the same league as the 300 (excellent to know!!!). My problem is that I’m debating whether to divest myself of all my Mac gear and go with the 300, or if a move to the Mac 611 mono blocks could bring me to that nice sweet spot. I can’t really find any comparisons of the Diablo versus the 611’s (601’s for that matter) and where I live makes auditioning prohibitive...and actually impossible to demo a 300 as there are no dealers in Ontario. Wondering if you have any insight...?
Also, did you have the opportunity to negotiate a better price for the new 300 and the DAC compared to the retail prices that are on the web? I know that the demo pricing looks good (after reading your response to my message I emailed the dealer inquiring of the history of the unit...thanks!), but if I do decide on a 300 and not the demo available, I’m wondering if our Canadian dealer is willing to negotiate!
Thanks again, Nyev!!!
Kevin
p.s. Think the Diablo is your “end game” as I have seen that term used often to refer to, “I’ve found Nirvana!!!”?
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Hi Kevin,
It was a while back now so I cannot recall if the 19K included the GST. Yes the dealer is the one in Vancouver.
If it's a different unit than the one that was there at the time, the dealer will need to price it in accordance with how much they spent to get the demo unit. For example for the demo I was looking at, they may have acquired it at a lower cost. Having said that, feel free to negotiate but also to be fair, you should be willing to walk away if they don't agree to your price.
About demo units, be advised: The dealer may not know the history of the unit in question; it may have had many previous lives as a traveling demo for all you know. They couldn't confirm the history for me of the demo they had at the time, which for me made it a non-starter (could have traveled the world at conferences, etc). They had bought the demo from Gryphon who had previously used it as a demo I think.
In general I'm still totally satisfied that I purchased the best amp (considering separates or integrated) that I could for the price, for my tastes. And that doesn't happen often with me - I'm not one to be positively biased simply because I've spent a lot on something. In fact it's usually the opposite as I have such high expectations relative to cost. Couldn't ask for a better amp really, and I can't believe I actually was looking at Bryston / McIntosh before, considering you'd end up spending a similar amount of money for separates / interconnects / power cables. Just watched "Knives Out" last night and saw a McIntosh CD player featured in a scene, and thought "thank god I went with the Diablo". No offense to McIntosh or Bryston fans; it's all subjective to personal taste.
I can't say too much about the DAC module as I don't have extensive experience testing DAC's. All I know is I am blown away comparing it with my standalone Arcam irDAC that I was using before (which to be fair is a very highly regarded DAC but way, way less expensive than the Gryphon module). I'm really happy with the DAC but I wouldn't trust my advice here given my limited DAC testing experience. It is super cliche but the Gryphon module sounds far more "analog" than my Arcam irDAC which sounded thinner and not as fully fleshed out in comparison. And, you get to take advantage of the magic blue flashing light that indicates the DAC module's super-cap is charging (for a minute or a bit longer after amp startup), which supposedly improves sound by ensuring the DAC is not relying on the digital source for USB power. That said, if I listen to music for the minute or so when the blue light is flashing, meaning that the super-cap is still charging and therefore USB is still powered by the source, I hear no improvement at all after I hear the faint click of a relay and the blue light stops flashing. Maybe because my Innuos digital source already has a high-quality power supply for the USB? Who knows. Not sure if the improvement is supposed to be due to the quality of USB power, or the fact that power comes from one circuit with better grounding, or something like that... If anyone knows what Gryphon's theory is around the benefit of the super-cap is (beyond the high-level marketing explanation), I'd be interested to know what my flashing blue light is actually doing for me!
Good luck Kevin!
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Hi Nyev!
May I ask if the dealer that you referred to is in Vancouver? And the demo that you referred to...for 19k US, did that include the GST? I have been emailing back and forth with a (actually the one and only!) dealer in Canada and there is a demo available there with both the phono stage and the DAC...but it is higher than 19k (even if I do the conversion and add GST, my given price is still higher than what it looks like you may have been offered. I also wonder if this could possibly be the same demo...Also, how do you like internal DAC???
Thanks and all the best!!!
Kevin
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If lucky less, if not so lucky more, but I would say that $20k integrated with dac and phono and even without them would require at least $2k power cord. Gryphon people themselves consider power cord an important element. I would try three brands - Gryphon, Purist Audio and Stage III. Conditioner, any conditioner, would be very tricky or not needed at all. In any case, great power cord comes first. |
Hi xsparky the Torus sounds interesting. Others have said to plug the Diablo direct to the wall as conditioners sometimes can’t provide enough juice for the Diablo’s large current needs. Including advice higher up in this thread. I also saw an example at a HiFi show where a conditioner ruined the Diablo’s performance, and they realized this too late. But I guess the Torus is different and provides higher current than others? Also, according to a dealer I spoke with, high quality power cords also manage “pollution” caused by the stereo gear itself. In particular digital components which apparently are extra noisy.
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Congratulations Nyev,
I am out of town unfortunately until March 18th. My Diablo 300 is at my dealer now. It cam in the week after I left. You will have to
let me know your thoughts
on the dac. My Klimax DSM is getting upgraded now. Should be back close to when I get back too.
I will have my system system plugged into my Torus Power Rm20 to a 20 amp outlet. The Torus is an isolation transformer keeping everything isolated
and off the electrical grid. Works extremely well with no chocking or coloration!! Had my previous Mac 501’s and everything else plugged Into it with exception success.
I don’t bother with exotic cords and what not when my system is off the grid. Not needed at all in my opinion.
The fellow who bought my
Mac gear bought one on my recommendation only. He
likes it so much he
bought more units for
his other systems in other rooms.
Any, got to go for now.... cheers.
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Congrats nyev! I’ll be interested to hear how the Valhalla 2 works out for you. |
Ordered the Diablo 300 today (finally), with the DAC module. Dealer offered me a demo phono board that may or may not have ever been used, at half price, so I accepted. The rest will be brand new.
I’ve also ordered an InnuOS Zenith Mk III player, as I don’t think my Mac Mini was really up to the job.
Diablo could be ready for pickup in two weeks, but the InnuOS could take up to two months as the new MK III is backordered.
After everything is burned in I’ll be testing power cords. Others on this board have told me they don’t really notice a difference between cords on the Diablo. Possibly due to the Diablo’s design vs other amps which are quite different with different cords. Need to get my hands on a demo Valhalla 2 just to see if it can do anything with the Diablo. I’ve also been told the cord makes way more difference with the media server/player than it does with the Diablo, as digital equipment tends to “pollute the AC line.” But I’ll probably go with something like the AQ Hurricane - we’ll see after testing. Depends how the Valhalla 2 does.... I’ll need to wait a couple of months for the InnuOS to arrive before that testing. Until then I’ll have to burn in the Diablo with the Mac Mini running Audirvana.
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My Diablo 300 was barebones as I only use digital streaming from a LUMIN U1 to a Chord Dave Dac via AES/ebu.....then to the Diablo. It worked splendidly.
Inna ......in my present system I have the LUMIN U1 to the Chord Dave to a Vac Renaissance Mk5 Preamp to a Vac 200iq amp to a pair of Magico S3MK2 speakers.
I have absolutely no interest in analog and I prefer the flexibility of choosing my own Dac. For the record I got a very noticeable SQ increase when I went with the LUMIN U1 streamer over my Mcbook Pro via USB to the Chord Dave.
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Hi,
I have a Linn Klimax Dsm streamer. This is getting upgraded at the moment to their Katalyst dac architect. It has been in storage for a couple of years since my move. I like the fact that Linn has supported and continues to support their customers with upgrades if desired. I plan to use Roon to source my flac music library and music services to stream to the Linn Dsm.
These two pieces will be the heart of my system to my PMC's.
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Xsparky you are probably right about overthinking the service risk. One thing though is I think it is likely that only one or two areas of the Diablo are mil-spec. I can’t imagine all components, relays, etc are mil-spec. Could be just the PCB’s themselves that are, and not the components on the boards.
Out of curiosity, what are you feeding your DAC from? I’m using a Mac Mini with Audirvana but am considering whether to plan a move to a dedicated streamer. Which may be more important to do once I have the Diablo in my system.
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Hi Guy's,
Interesting thread you have started on the Gryphon Diablo 300.
I have just ordered a Diablo 300. No dac or phono module, as I am all digital with a very good dac I am happy with. I may entertain Gryphon's dac module down the road, but we will see. My dac is out getting upgraded at the moment to their latest spec in the UK. Both pieces should back and here maybe this week or next. The only other thing is I have to go out of town for a couple of weeks beginning of March as things arrive. :(
I did not have the luxury of auditioning the Gryphon Diablo 300 prior, in my area. I know I know, but unless you have that exact piece in your environment, with your speakers, etc, it is a guessing game with synergy....
I am down sizing from McIntosh Mc501 mono blocks, and there two piece C500t preamp. I had these mated to my PMC Ib2i's. This system sang, and I would have kept it, but the sprawl of everything needed to go as my room and setup is different now since I moved. I wanted a top end integrated amplifier.
Hence the Diablo 300.
Nyev, your concern's about repair are perhaps warranted, but over thought or worrying too much in my opinion. When you get into this caliber of components, with military spec boards and top selected components, repair will be negligible if any in my opinion. World wide shipping works now a days as repair depot's are not on every corner from most upscale brands anyway. The cost of doing business "if" needed. As you mentioned the dealer sent their unit in and nothing was amiss. That dealer was pushing that amp and doing usual things with it anyway.
So....order, enjoy, and don't look back.
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I get your concerns over repairs and the dealer’s response, but I am in a similar boat with my Symphonic Line electronics from Germany. This fall I had an output board fry in the CDP/DAC (ooo-oooh that smell, can’t you smell that smell?). The solution was to send me a new one to plug in, and all was well. To be honest, I actually preferred DIY to entrusting it to FedEx or UPS. |
I know virtually nothing about digital, I did hear something about Aurender and PS Audio streamers, something good, I just don't remember what exactly I heard. I mean heard from serious audiophiles.
As far as turntables go, $12k for table/arm plus cartridge would be an excellent set up, high level. Whether you choose warmer sounding, say, Nottingham Analogue or Pear Audio turntables or colder more neutral sounding, say, SME or Kuzma or Simon Yorke turntables, everything should be matched as much as possible, not just electrically and mechanically but also musically. Gryphon's onboard phono could be a good starting point but you would want to go higher or both higher and with tubes. I read somewhere that Gryphon's own separate phono is great but very expensive.
Of course, Gryphon expects the use of a computer as a source but not only, they are well aware that many audiophiles keep playing cds. So with both phono and dac onboard you just need sources, speakers and a few cables, the Diablo will take care of the rest. Oh yes, and the wall current. |
When the time is right, I’d guess my budget for a turntable would be up to $12K. But that could all change once I start exploring that avenue further and I become better acquainted with the options....
But after this purchase I doubt that will be happening for 1-3 years!
I also need to consider whether I’m happy continuing using my Mac Mini with Audirvana as my digital music streamer or whether I’d like to get a dedicated streamer at some point. I’m not sure how much difference something like an Aurender or even one of Simaudio’s streamers will make vs my Mac Mini. I’ve got a decent AudioQuest Diamond USB cable and also a JitterBug anti-jitter device (which I have not tried yet). I have trouble spending a lot on a dedicated streamer considering how quickly technology will render it obsolete, despite firmware upgrades etc. I worry about that for DAC’s as well, as even that technology is changing in terms of supported formats. Gryphon’s documentation for the Diablo DAC module expects users will be connecting to a computer, so I’m hoping that’s a sign that my Mac Mini should be sufficient. If Gryphon assumes use of a computer as a streamer for their DAC, that must be a sign it’s acceptable!
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Bass resonance must be present if recorded, just as body and resonance of other instruments in other frequencies. It should not be bloated unless, again, that's how it was recorded.
Yeah, as I like to think, the biggest audiophile mistake is not to spend enough, and second biggest one is to spend too much. You just have to define it in each case.
You mentioned possible great turntable in the future. Some will say that there are great $5k turntables while others will say that there is nothing great under $50k. Gryphon phono should be adequate for $5k table /arm plus up to $2k cartridge set up. But if you go higher, yes, no choice but have separate phono. |
One other thing to add about my second audition of the Gryphon. I actually enjoyed the 802 D3 speakers much more once I put my finger on what was initially making me a bit uncertain about them. Yes the midrange is more aggressive than the D2, but it is also more revealing and presents very lifelike vocals as a result. I found the Stereophile review of the 802 D3's and I think they hit the nail on the head for me - they said the speakers were great but noted that some may find the speakers too "light" due to the fact that the bass, while very deep and present, has no added "resonance" and no bloat and therefore can make the overall tonal presentation seem a bit light. Once I realized this I appreciated the speakers more. The bass is very deep and very present; it is just so well defined without bloat or "resonance" as Stereophile put it, that it makes the midrange appear to stand out more when listening to music that is lighter in lower level frequencies.
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All very good points. I'll have to think on it! I've had that exact issue happen to me in the past, where I had my upgrade path planned at the time of initial purchase and then when the time came I went to the shop and the key components were discontinued.... In that case it worked out as ebay saved the day and I bought used... |
By all accounts, not from my personal experience, current Gryphon's phono stage module is absolutely best compared to any other solid state integrated. At the very least, it is a very very good phono stage.
Sure, great separate tube or transistor phono will outdo it, I would guess for two or three times the cost plus interconnects and power cord.
And.. if you decide to add that phono module in ten years it may no longer be available.
So..? |
I am a sucker for being upsold, careful :) Yes I could consider the phono module as well, but my goal is to, at some point in the future, to get a great turntable and as such I am thinking I'd be better served with an external phono module, possibly tube based. I really don't know much about turntables or phono stages, but from what others have said, it seems external would be ideal. Thoughts?? Also, should I go with the internal phono module in the future I'd be fine opening up the unit and installing myself. In fact I'd enjoy that. I asked and they said if you are comfortable working with electronics (I am), it is not an issue to install the modules myself.
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If your funds are good you might consider getting $2500 phono as well. You may not need it now but who knows about the future ? And also, if you ever decide to sell the Diablo this will add value in many cases. With both phono and dac this will be a complete machine. |
From my experience in terms of what I have access to test in my area (which is admittedly limited), Diablo 300 beats all separates at a similar price point. This includes McIntosh C2600/MC452, Bryston 4B3 with various preamps, and the Simaudio 600 integrated. I’ve tested other combinations in-store that were on my long-list before the shortlist gear mentioned above which I tested in-home. I also tried using the Simaudio 600i as a preamp to get a sense of what the 740p preamp might sound like. None of these configurations came even close to the Gryphon integrated in any particular area. Except, maybe, the Simaudio in terms of soundstage and detail, but performance was similar only in that one area. To me the Simaudio sounded dry, a bit analytical, had no drive and not a lot of bass, and didn’t engage me in a musical sense at all. Higher power Simaudio amplifiers would be better, but the overall sonic presentation didn’t appeal to me and sounded lifeless. When I tested all of this gear, I wanted to like them, and even with the Gryphon I wasn’t sure on my first audition. Now that I’ve gone through this process, I’m confident that overall the Gryphon is not even comparable to other options at its price or lower; it was so much more capable and makes it very obvious it is in a different class of gear.
Also, the consensus from many others say you would need to spend double the cost of the Diablo 300 to beat its performance. This includes Whitecamaross (OP of the "Long list of amplifier and my review of each" multi-year thread) who feels I’d need to go to the Luxman pre/pwr 900u system to beat the Diablo, and these are WAY more expensive. That dude has a ton of hands-on experience beyond what any reasonable hobbyist should have and he is worth listening to.
So yes, I am intentionally not giving weight to my concerns around service. And I don’t know that Gryphon has N.A. authorized repair, as I asked my dealer this and I got a bit of a fuzzy answer ("Gryphon engineers can walk technicians through diagnostics over the phone, and its possible that if only one module or board needs switching out that it can be done remotely"). To me it sounds like any real service will require shipping to Gryphon headquarters. In fact, even my dealer thought they had an issue with their previous demo unit (turned out the unit was fine) and they had to ship it back to Denmark. In short, I’m resigned to paying a lot in shipping should I require out of warranty service, and hoping that Gryphon continues as a business even without their original founder, which I think is more likely than not. Also, my dealer offered me a similar deal to the one Jetter referenced on Audiogon, on their demo Diablo which I tested. I considered this as they would include the DAC and phono modules which is a huge value, but in the end I don’t think I can get over two cosmetic scratches on their demo unit, even though they are minor. Also they have no history of the unit, it was simply provided as a "distributor demo". So I think I will be going with a new Diablo with the DAC module, instead of the demo option. The internal DAC module on its own performs so well, that this in itself warrants getting excited about!
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Yeah, interesting. My guess is that Diablo 300 will win in all cases except maybe where for some reason you want active preamp, Diablo's preamp section is passive.
I myself would not compare Diablo 300 to used Pass separates, I would compare it to used Lamm hybrid separates. |
I've never heard a
Gryphon
product. I'm very curious as to how the Diablo 300 compares to a Pass X250.8/X350.8 + excellent preamp like the XP-20/XP-22, Sim 740P, or say AR REF5SE. A great sounding and powerful integrated is very appealing; that being said for the price a very solid amp/pre pair + interconnect can be put together on the used market that would also sound awesome. Is the Gryphon still in another league from these North American products?
I've seen used 250.8s for ~$5500USD, 350.8s for ~$8000, XP-20s for ~ $5000, XP-22s for ~$7000, 740Ps for ~$5000, and AR REF5SE for ~$6000. There is a Diablo 300 on this site now for ~$12K. Throw in $800 to $1K for an excellent interconnect (like a Shunyata Anaconda for instance) and you can mix and match a pretty awesome stack for a little less or a little more than the integrated.
As much as I like my 250.8, I still think adding the 740P to my system made one of the largest improvements compared to all of my various electronic upgrades over the many years. That is where I wonder if the biggest advantage to going with separates over these amazing but pricey integrateds is the ability to tailor the preamp section to your amp of choice.
Obviously using the MSRPs of these separates compared to the Diablo or other similar products is not fair and one can see where the integrateds provide excellent value. But, if the integrateds are not available at similar discounts used, then maybe the value proposition shifts... Of course, none of this holds if the Diablo is another level above these separates in sound quality.
Cheers
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Gryphon does. I once talked to their distributor, inquiring about possible 220 to 110 volts conversion. The lady said they would not work on any not North America voltage units and that I would have to ship it to Denmark. She also said they would not install optional phono in not 110 volts units. I was just thinking, hypothetically, of maybe buying used unit from Europe or Asia at some point. Not only Diablo 300, older integrateds and separates as well. Gryphon separates is a dream unless I decide to go all tube. Perhaps in steps, first Gryphon integrated with tube phono, then Gryphon separates with tube phono and then all tube. But each of these steps would already be excellent by itself. |
nyev
I enjoyed your follow up review. The most important factor is repair/service after the sale. Does The Gryphon have an authorized repair representative here in the U.S.A. ?
Happy Listening! |
It is a beautiful amplifier with its Bat Cave looks which I like, and it does seem to garner rave reviews. I see why you want one as I am sure I would like it too, I just didn't have any idea of the negatives until you brought them up. |
But yes, though there is never a guarantee, if you want as much piece of mind as possible long term, I think companies like FM Acoustics, Nagra and Accuphase will give you that, especially if you are an original owner. I don't know how good their service is, they just shouldn't disappear in the foreseeable future or radically change course. They would not be my first choice, certainly not if buying new, but that's me, there are other approaches. |
dguitar, I hear you. But we are talking about transistor amps so I won't go there. What preamp do you use with your VAC ? Phono stage ? Oh yes, and what speakers ? |
There is what appears to be a brand new never used Diablo 300 for sale right now on A'gon for $12,300, local pick up Des Plaines, IL only, without a DAC or phono stage. Just providing this to give an idea of the mark up (normal?) on these units and perhaps a little bargaining power when you go to purchase it. |
nyev, you have buying the gryphon in mind and nothing is going to change your mind. I do the same when I make up my mind. You are giving little weight to the reasons for not purchasing the unit, and then weighing too heavily the reasons for buying the amp. For example, you make it sound like the gryphon is the "budget buy" of top gear and the best sounding in its price range. Inna makes it sound like to buy top gear it has to come with all the uncertainties of having a potentially unstable manufacturer to deal with and possibly proprietary parts not being available. I am not saying anything negative may happen at all, but I am saying that you brought up all of these things and I think you are wise in doing so.
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I have lots of respect for inna's points of view but don't agree with a couple of points here.
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I home demoed both the Diablo 120 and 300 before I purchased the 300.
The Diablo 120 imho at medium to low volumes sounded as good if not better than the 300. But as a value taking price versus power the 300 won me over.
The Diablo 120 has a special promotion now which makes it a good deal.
IMO these integrateds are easily the best solid states on the market. The Live and detailed presentation is the best I have ever heard.
That being said I sold the Diablo and went to a Vac 200iq tube amp. Being an old guitar player I just prefer tube amps in general.....that je ne sais quoi...factor. |
Keep us informed of your experience with the Diablo, I think many are interested. Whatever else it might be, Gryphon is a very distinct and very high class voice. It also demonstrates what transistor equipment is capable of, even hard core tube purists respect it. |
It's hard to tell from a short interview; we'd just be speculating. I just found it a bit odd is all. Also I think it is not realistic that a small boutique shop can stay a small boutique shop forever - thirty years is a long run. With Fleming retired, I'd guess there is more chance the company will eventually change hands in the future (after which its identity would change, as I'd think it likely Flemming continues to own a large, likely majority share in the company). I can't see Gryphon growing much in the uber high-end segment, which I'm sure is a small niche market, even globally. Either way all of this is purely conjecture, and I'm happy to proceed with the Diablo. Hopefully I'll be able to get service if I ever need it, and hopefully I never will need it!
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nyev, appreciate it. I have just watched it.
Yeah...
The man does not sound like either audiophile and music lover or high class. I also thought that he had no clue of where to go, no leadership perceived, but that may not be bad in this case. His reference to Flemming's health was inappropriate. On the positive side, as I suspected, Flemming will actually stay as a chief designer and consultant at least for some time, and that the new CEO would unlikely do anything completely wrong or they will throw him out.
Gryphon certainly has been growing in North America, but they don't make too many units and I hope they will keep it that way.
Also, though currently any new Gryphon is out of my reach, I don't want to see affordable Gryphon.
I would not have any problem for myself getting Gryphon, especially new from authorized dealer. |
Inna, here is the video I was referring to: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OXFXvA4c4FkAfter researching, I also saw that Gryphon’s new CEO came from B&O (he worked there as of 2010). They make some neat stuff but I don’t think their main focus is on sound. In the video above they say that Gryphon’s approach is to allow their engineers to work with any budget necessary to achieve the highest quality sound, and that they plan on continuing with this high-end market focus. I’d be curious as to how they plan to grow within this market, or even if corporate growth is a goal for Gryphon. Some companies simply don’t care about that. |
Inna, I’ll try to find the interview, it was just on YouTube. It was nothing really negative, just said that they weren’t planning to do things differently, that it was an honour, and then something I thought was just a bit odd that he bothered to mention about Flemming. I’ll see if I can find it again. |
By the way, I don't know about D'Agostino but Luxman would sound very different from Gryphon, Accuphase too. |
Yes, changing times, but I too use my Nakamichi 682ZX cassette deck almost daily and have it aligned and tuned every three-four years,
I once read here on Audiogon, a long time ago, a man was asking about the best way to ship big Gryphon stereo amp to Denmark. That was the time when Gryphon was not present in North America but they agreed to service the unit. I am not sure if he was the original owner or not, but you will be.
nyev, where did you see that interview with the current Gryphon CEO ? I would like to take a look too. |
I agee Inna, that’s why I say it’s something that is a consideration but not something that will stop my from purchasing. Shipping to Denmark is expensive but doable, especially with Gryphon’s wooden crate for the unit. I think this is just part of what you get when you leave the more “mainstream” companies like McIntosh and Bryston and move up a level to a bespoke company like Gryphon. I don’t think their refusal to deal with customer directly is arrogance, rather I think it is likely necessity due to their size. Just like their tentative re-entry into N.A. distribution - it’s likely they are not set up to scale for larger volume sales and subsequent support. Gryphon have never appeared to be interested in really pushing geographic expansion or targeting wider market segments, but again this may be simply because they never focused on positioning company to scale while still maintaining their no-compromise approach to design and (sub-contract) manufacturing. I think if the N.A. distribution were to stop they would very likely provide direct service. To me the biggest concern is what their future will be like without Flemming, this is what is different about Gryphon vs most other bespoke companies. I saw an interview with their current CEO and it didn’t exactly inspire conference, especially what he said about some of the reasons that influenced Fleming’s retirement. Regardless, I am now fairly confident that to beat the Gryphon Diablo’s sound quality I’d need to spend double the cash (for say a D’Agostino or Luxman system). And since I’m not prepared to spend that much, the Diablo just makes sense, and it’s a great value. I don’t know too much about D’Agostino or Luxman but similar concerns could exist with them.
My dad still has an Accuphase pre-amp/amp and a Nakamici tape deck that he bought in the seventies. The first brand is still around in its mostly original incarnation, but not the second. When I was a kid there were multiple local shops that provided repair services, which I recall my dad relying on from time to time. These shops were authorized by the brands to provide service and surely had training. All of these service options no longer exist. Changing times. |
