Component Advice for Small Room with Lively Surfaces

Good deep bass is the one thing you can absolutely get, simply use a DBA with either one amp and four subs (Audiokinesis Swarm), or four powered subs, or a mix like mine. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Do a search for DBA, distributed bass array, Swarm, read the comments and study the theory because this definitely works better than anything else- and that is even before considering its a stone value at only about $3k total depending on how you do it. 

If you want pretty speakers beauty is in the eye of the beholder but if you want killer sound value it would just about have to be Tekton Moab. But in truth anything will work for what you want as long as you have the DBA. Just don't buy into the BS about a small room needing small speakers. 

Speaking of which any acoustic problems in your room are handled with Synergistic HFT, or UEF, either of which are incredibly effective while being unobtrusive and you get a month to decide making it hard to go wrong.

Your budget if you do it right opens up the possibility of some extreme high value analog front end - Soundsmith Strain Gauge on the Schroeder designed Soundsmith arm and maybe even all that on the Onkk Cue table. The SG saves you a phono stage and you save a ton using efficient Moabs and DBA so you can drive them easily with a Raven Nighthawk and with the right SR wire have an absolute killer system in your room and all within your $50k.

Thanks very much for your suggestion. Very much appreciate it. Had not even considered the setup you recommended. Sound quality is much more important than pretty furniture so wide open there. You have a phenomenal system...would you recommend tubes in my case? I was also thinking of an integrated amp but maybe separates would be better? Wide open to any thoughts and suggestions. Many thanks!  

In my opinion working "with the room" rather than "against the room" matters a great deal... especially in small, lively room. Two things come to mind:

First, we want the reverberant sound to have essentially the same spectral balance as the direct sound. When the reflections sound like the first-arrival sound the timbre tends to be nice and rich, assuming the frequency response is good.

Second, in general early reflections are much more likely to be degrade clarity and/or image precision (including depth) than later ones, so if possible we’d like to be able to "aim" the speakers to avoid strong early sidewall reflections. Ime the smaller the room, the more critical this becomes.

Two technologies which can meet both criteria without reliance on room treatments are: Dipole speakers, and horn speakers... in both cases, assuming they are "done right".

A dipole speaker with a well-behaved, uniform radiation pattern can generate a reverberant field which is spectrally correct, and can be aimed to avoid strong early sidewall reflections. IF they can be placed fairly far out from the wall - five feet is my recommendation - then the backwave energy arrives after a long enough time delay that it is beneficial.

A low-coloration constant-directivity horn loudspeaker can likewise be aimed to avoid early sidewall reflections, while offering greater placement flexibility than a dipole since it doesn’t need "breathing room" for the backwave. Horn speakers tend to be much more efficient than other types, which means they must either be quite large to produce good low bass, or else they usually need help from subwoofers for the bottom octave or two.

In an ideal setup with either speaker type, we can minimize the "small room signature" cues of the playback room while effectively presenting the spatial cues on the recording. Thus even in a fairly small and lively room, we can hear "more of the recording" and "less of the room."

Disclaimer: I am commercially involved with both types of speakers, which means that I voted for these ideas with my wallet, and you are of course invited to take this with as many grains of salt as you like. 

Duke

Thanks very much for your suggestion. Very much appreciate it. Had not even considered the setup you recommended. Sound quality is much more important than pretty furniture so wide open there. You have a phenomenal system...would you recommend tubes in my case? I was also thinking of an integrated amp but maybe separates would be better? Wide open to any thoughts and suggestions.

I would totally recommend an integrated tube amp. You will find it very hard indeed to beat that Raven integrated with any combination of separates without spending a lot more money. Not only for the components, which you cannot even come close to the Raven for $3-4k, but then as well with the extra power cord and interconnect the separates require. Its not even close. 

Plus Raven is made here in the USA. Well technically Texas, which is even better.

The components I listed are exactly what I would get were I in a situation of having to buy it all from scratch and knowing what I know now. This system will be a bit heavy on the front end. That is to say, in terms of it being a starting point (systems usually are a starting point no matter what anyone says) the turntable/arm/cart/phono stage will be essentially lifetime awesome. The DBA will be lifetime awesome. Rough estimate your budget will be about $5k for all the wire. So wire, and accessories like HFT, ECT, and some other details (tweaks) will be your logical areas for upgrades for the next little while.

But you will not need more power. You will be beside yourself with pleasure and finding it hard to believe such awesome sound quality is even possible, as it will be better than anything you have heard, or indeed likely ever will hear, for quite some time to come. Especially in terms of bass. You absolutely will never experience bass anything like what you will get with a DBA. All the rest will be awesome but the bass will have you shaking your head in disbelief over and over again. 

PS- Duke, Audiokinesis who posted above, is the designer and seller of the Swarm subwoofer system, and helped me build mine.

My thoughts are:

Speaker Dispersion: If you can handle a tight listening area, get speakers with controlled dispersion. Horns, panels, line arrays and bi-polars are good ideas.

Acoustics: As I read your description, you don’t have a lot of surface area you can treat, so treat the ceiling and floor as much as you can, as well as the stone wall. Also, consider standing up GIK soffit traps in the corners.

https://www.gikacoustics.com/

EQ: Consider a pre or integrated with built in room correction like Anthem. This will help you get the most out of your speakers with least effort.

https://anthemav.com/products/series=str-series

Strongly encourage you to talk to GIK first, get the best you can in room acoustics, followed by EQ. More at my post here:

https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-to-not-buy-subwoofer.html

"In my opinion working "with the room" rather than "against the room" matters a great deal... especially in small, lively room"

This makes alot of sense Duke and I am wondering if there are any particular dipoles and horns that you would recommend? Thank you

millercarbon, thanks very much for your recommendation on the Raven. Had no idea they are made in Texas, which is where I live. I will be sure to check them out. Really do appreciate your in-depth explanation and observations.

erik_squires, thank you for your thoughts. You are correct in that there is not a lot of surface area in the room that can be treated. I don't think the stone wall is treatable either as it has stainless steel built in cabinets for components and albums and 4 stainless steel niches for guitar displays. Will definitely check out your suggested acoustic and EQ treatments. Are there any particular controlled dispersion speakers that would be worth considering? 

Thanks to you both.

I had a challenging room though not as bad as you describe yours. I ended up using ARC room correction. I used Dirac as well but I liked Anthems line of products better. Either one should help with reflections and bass integration, I found the latter more important to me as I am not a fan of boomy bass that vibrates your insides. Another thing that would help is rugs on the floor and upholstered furniture.
Edit: I didn't notice you mentioned spinning vinyl. ARC or Dirac used would be doing analog to digital conversions which is something you might not want.

Vanquish wrote: "This makes a lot of sense Duke and I am wondering if there are any particular dipoles and horns that you would recommend?" 

In my opinion SoundLab fullrange electrostats do an excellent job in a wide range of rooms, assuming they can be positioned five feet in front of the wall.  Less than that and they can still work well, but we will need to diffuse the backwave or, as a last resort, absorb it.  SoundLabs have an exceptionally uniform radiation pattern across either 45 degrees or 90 degrees front and back, depending on whether you go with the new (45 degree) panels or the old (90 degree) panels.   I prefer the new 45 degree panels UNLESS a rather wide sweet spot is needed. 

I make low-coloration horn speakers with room interaction very much in mind, which includes something that I don't think anyone else is doing:  I include user-adjustable additional upwards-and-backwards firing drivers to fine-tune the reverberant field. The fairly directional output of these additional drivers bounces off the wall behind the speakers and then off the ceiling before arriving at the listening area, so it arrives after a sufficiently long time delay without requiring much distance from the wall.  My website is under revision but you can see my current models at James Romeyn Music and Audio.  Jim is my partner. 

You mentioned Texas... I'm located about an hour from Dallas. 

Duke

I have a very similar room my wife’s 12x12 sunroom with windows on 3 sides a tile floor and cathedral ceiling. Also limited options for placement within. It’s an acoustic nightmare. Lucky it’s not my main listening room.

Having tried many speakers in there larger and smaller over the years in this case smaller was best. Currently using tiny Vanatoo Transparent One Encore actives in there (angled up slightly on short isolation stands) and am happiest I have been with the sound in there.

Smaller may be best in very lively rooms

Photo:https://photos.app.goo.gl/npCgHZEPXT3wmfww5

Also have used these 8” Ohm Walsh speakers there to good effect but was overkill for me in there:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/aqqRqhkHGpjBqnk28

Thank you all for your feedback. All great advice which I am digesting now to make sure I have a compete grasp of all points. 
Duke, I am located about 25 miles north of Dallas.

Thanks again. Will be back again as soon as I am able.

In Texas you should check with Dave Thompson at Raven. They're somewhere in Texas too.

Will do. Thanks