Curious How These Nordost Speaker Cables Do What They Do
For a day and a half I’ve been listening to Nordost Red Dawn Rev.II cables in my system(Quad VA-One and Dynaudio Excite X14),courtesy of a friend who is in turn demo’ing some ungodly expensive upgrade...My reference are the Acoustic Zen Epoch..What these cables have brought to my system are: The first thing I noticed is the music seems to come easier,ie:a touch louder than normal at low levels and it’s so clean I find I’m listening louder.. wider,deeper,and sharper defined imaging and staging...deeper,better defined and tonally richer bass...increased low level detail retrieval...a treble that is not as easy on the ears but seems better defined,almost sharp and I can see where some systems could move way to far into bright with these cables... So I attribute the cleaner/sharper tone to the addition of high purity silver to the cable but I wonder what it is about the materials and construction that allow the bass,imaging and staging changes and especially the ease which music seems to come now?Any comments(from those who have found cables do matter)and NOT from those who believe they are snake oil PLEASE!!!
People, PLEASE! I am an electrician. OK, These Nordost cables might be quite good quality. They sure are expensive. But you are plugging them into a mains socket with just bog standard twin and earth cable which is supplying the power to that point on your wall. A bog standard cable, I might add, that may well be over 20m, 30m, 40m or more in length which will be acting like a natural antenna. Top end hifi will filter all this noise out before it is supplied to the main power transformer within the equipment WHATEVER TYPE OF POWER CABLE YOU USE FROM MAINS WALL SOCKET TO HIFI BOX.. Snake oil ? Darn tootin' !
Of all the conversations about conductors and signal path “science” what I see very little comment on is one of Nordost’s most prominent physical characteristics. This differentiates it from most other brands, and with the Norse 2 and up lines is the dual-monofilament suspension of the conductor (not to mention Fluorinated Ethylene Propylene (FEP) sheathing. It seems these days more and more highly transparent cable brands (ie Tara Labs square conductor, Black Cat foamed or woven, just to name a couple) amongst other things are trying to eliminate the effects of say smearing and discoloration, etc with a form of air-dielectric.
To my ears, regardless of any kind of scientific explanation needed, I find this kind of cable, especially in the front end of a kit, and especially with preamplified analogue signals to be very adventurous and inviting.
What I hear from these types of designs appears very consistently truer them most. With a somewhat neutral kit where one is not tonally compensating for a gross imbalance or short-coming, these designs seem to ring a little truer. Like almost no wire (influence) at all.
All imho, so certainly I like the price/performance ratio of the TYR Norse 2 product line. Your mileage may very...
The two major brand cables with the worst sounding audio shows are the Transparent and High Fidelity cables. The best I've heard at half a dozen shows has been the Mastersound cables. Grover Huffman cables would be next. Triode Labs wires in shows always sounds good. Why is it that the most expensive cables from Transparent and High Fidelity ruin fine equipment at shows? I have also auditioned High Fidelity cables in an $800,000 home system (AvantGarde Trios, 3X Basshorns, Caliburn/Cobra analog, etc). and replacing the bright, forward and boomy sounding High Fidelity cables (2 ICs and 2 A/Cs) costing $40,000+ with Grover Huffman (elaborate design) for $2,200 brought the system into balance. I bet even similarly low cost Triode Wires or more expensive Kubala wiring would have sounded great but the bright/boomy wires of several high end brands are terrible sounding in every system I;ve heard them in.
I hate to sound so definitive about anything, but for me and a lot of music lovers, Transparent is uniquely guided by, and committed to allowing your audio system to recreate music with such an utterly natural and noiseless environment that it becomes completely immersive!
You ask an excellent question, freediver. A few who have posted here touched on the technical reasons, but no one has given a clear and complete explanation. I can't either. But, there's no doubt that complex things are happening in cables that affect what we hear in a big way. My own system has 3 brands of high-end cable that work well for me, but there's no point in naming them because what works for you could be different. Here are the things to remember:
Speaker cable interacts strongly with both speaker and amp. Get to know a dealer who sells both, because he will have experimented with lots of cables, and he'll know what works well. In my case, since both the speakers and monoblocs are by MBL, my dealer has lots of experience with what goes on both ends of the cable.
Quality doesn't necessarily always increase with price.
There is at least one prominent company out there (I won't say) that sells overpriced snake oil. You'll be able to figure out who it is if you pay close attention to their ads in TAS and Stereophile, as they use lots of pseudo-scientific words designed to make you think they have discovered magic.
Interconnect is important also, but in my experience what's good with one brand of source / pre / amp is good with others. Once you choose a speaker cable, maybe a good experiment is to try the same manufacturer's interconnect.
Trust your ears.
A cable company that has a lending library can be your friend in this.
After you've chosen speaker and interconnect cables, listen to power cords. I thought that was lunacy at first, but it's not, and now I have all that plus a power conditioner.
Can I be friends with your friend too please! Nice to know there are some people who just happen to have Valhalla cables "lying" around gathering dust! Yikes!
There is an old expression that seems appropriate at this juncture: "Out of the frying pan, and into the fire"
I have a friend who had an extra pair of Nordost Valhalla Reference speaker ribbons he had no use for, so he gave them to me.
At the time, my 1975 Advents were connected to the receiver with Monster Cable Audiophile grade lamp cord.
To go from $5 speaker wire to $5600/1-meter pair was the equivalent of going from a paper airplane to an F-35A Strike Fighter.
I have no other reference, except to say that this was a huge improvement. I have no problem with bass, and the mid-to-high end seems to flow effortlessly.
The Nordost literature says the signal is traveling at 96% the speed of light...maybe that is the secret.
1² = 1. Sorry, couldn't resist, but it illustrates some of the noise here that does not say anything.
Systems with no onboard tone controls in my experience, have seemed to be more responsive to cable changes than those with.
Absolutely! Many devices have the Tone Control in circuit all the time. Seldom are they flat. Stepped controls may be better if they use discrete matched parts. MidFi units may use stepped continuous pots and standard ±10% RC.
I use a passive control 0 to -22db in 1 ±0.05db steps of my own design. BTW, anybody thinking of buying a stepped passive, unless it is made for your system, the steps may not be even.
An advantage of a stepped external control is that it is not subject to the vagaries of component internal temperature. Continuous controls can vary audibly with temperature change and dual controls seldom track as well as high quality individual resistors. Throw in a balance control for good measure and it's never gonna be the same twice! Some device buffer gain, tone and balance controls, adding yet another three amplifier stages.
Digital controls can be very good if properly implemented.
FWIW, I note the reference step level on every disc so that if I evaluate another component I can match the level exactly. OK, < 0.5db.
Yes perhaps that is better stated indeed. Part of the reason for going with Nordost in my system, to help tame some of the unruly bass colourations present in my system/room. As I said purely a tone control.....lol
@audiosens. Is it possible that what you perceive as a lack of warmth really means a lack of added coloration? That the red dawns are just conveying the music without adding much to it?
@jmcgrogan2 +1, squared. Tone control is a very apt description of cabling, along with your statement about choosing components or cables to do so, more or less. Systems with no onboard tone controls in my experience, have seemed to be more responsive to cable changes than those with. Don't know why - perhaps coincidence. And thanks to the op freediver for asking a question that sometimes brings out less than useful comments from the peanut gallery.
Are you still on your cable search? Did you end up comparing the Audience SX with the Cardas Clear Beyond interconnects? If so, what did you find?
I had the Audience Au24 SX XLRs and the Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level 4 XLRs in for comparison against the Cardas Clear Reflection XLRs.
I chose the SR L-4s. I wasn’t able to get the Cardas Clear or Cardas Clear Beyond in on loan for the comparison (and I really wish I had been able to).
Since the OP hasn’t asked about the Audience SX cables or the others I compared, PM me and I’ll be happy to share my impressions.
Apparently current travels very slowly, the drift velocity of electrons being what, about 80 cm per hour. Thus the net velocity of current back and forth is zero. Also apparently, voltage is an electromagnetic field that has no velocity only direction, alternating with the current. Or maybe is does have velocity, maybe it’s a wave, it does not matter for this argument.
Thus, as regards the argument of fuse or wire directionality in AC circuits, it certainly appears that one should not care about the “relative audibility” of either current/voltage when they are traveling away from the speakers/amplier. One should only care about the relative audibility of current/voltage when they are traveling in the direction toward the speakers/amplifier. This is why the direction of fuses and wire in general is audible in AC circuits as well as DC circuits. In other words, it’s an old wives tale that fuses or cables cannot be “directional” in AC circuits. This also explains why all Audioquest cables AND power cords are “controlled for directionality,” even the tiny strands that comprise the conductors of their new power cords.
First, keep in mind that a voltage must always be defined relative to some point, i.e., it exists between two points. It is not meaningful to simply think that "the neutral rail is always at zero volts."
In the case of a light bulb the terminal that is connected to AC "hot" is at 120 volts relative to the terminal that is connected to AC "neutral," which in turn is at or very close to zero volts relative to earth ground. In the case of a speaker cable the + wire is at some voltage relative to the - wire, depending on the signal at any given instant, and depending on the design of the amp the voltage on the - wire may or may not be at zero volts relative to the amp’s circuit ground, or relative to AC neutral, AC safety ground, and earth ground. For example, "fully balanced" amps and bridged mono amps both have full amplitude signals on both their + and - output terminals, with the voltages on those terminals differing from each other simply in that they have opposite polarities.
The current that is provided to a speaker by an amp, as well as the current that is provided to a light bulb by the incoming AC, both result from a voltage **difference** that is applied between the two conductors. The fact that one conductor may be at zero volts relative to some reference has no relevance to that.
Also, ieales comment above that relates to this ...
If the current were different in each leg of the cable, energy would either be gained or lost.
Apply a steady 1kHz 1V signal to a speaker. Regardless of where an ammeter is inserted in the circuit, the RMS current is the same.
@almarg - I think the lightbulb analogy is not a great example because the bulb is connected between two terminals that are both carrying an alternating voltage/current - I agree in that scenario there would be the same voltage on the +ve and -ve conductors
However in an amp, only the "SIGNAL PATH" of the circuit carries the alternating voltage/current - the "power rail" is always at some +ve DC voltage
- the neutral rail is always at zero volts.(or should be)
The output terminal of transistor or tube performing the amplification carries the AC signal - but the neutral side of the amp's circuit remains zero volts
The neutral conductor in the speaker cable, being connected to the neutral rail, should be at zero volts - should it not?
I can see there would be "a flow of electrical energy" that is from +ve output terminal - via the loudspeaker and cable - returning to the amp's -ve terminal. But somewhere along the way power has to be converted/consumed and that means either the current or the voltage has to change - doesn't it?
@williewonka sorry you thought my post bombastic :-$ perhaps I get a bit carried away when fundamental laws are ignored.
the current (i.e. energy), or maybe even the voltage, in the neutral (i.e. minus) conductor cannot possibly be the same as the signal conductor.
It cannot be otherwise. As you state, energy cannot be created or destroyed. It changes state in the load.
The work is done by V pushing I through the load. If you measure a loudspeaker circuit, very little V is lost from either amplifier terminal to the speaker. Almost all V is across the load. Power is V x I. If the current were different in each leg of the cable, energy would either be gained or lost.
Apply a steady 1kHz 1V signal to a speaker. Regardless of where an ammeter is inserted in the circuit, the RMS current is the same.
In a DC circuit, V and I are in phase. In an AC circuit, V and I are not in phase if there is any L or C. Cable LRC change the phase and relative amplitude in combination with amplifier and loudspeaker LRC.
Phase angle is dependent on the difference between L reactance XL and C reactance XC, which vary with frequency. In cables like zip cord XL & XC may vary by a factor of 100 to 1. Some exotic cables XL & XC may vary by a billion to 1. XL can vary by a factor of 10,000 and more between zip cord and exotic cables. Exotic cables should endeavor to have less inductance, but some are worse than zip cord.
Asymmetric cables have a different L & C relative to parallel or woven and as such affect the current phase differently. These phase changes may be euphonious with some amplifier / loudspeaker combinations, not so much with others.
Some put sugar in coffee and prefer the 'sweetened' result.
One cannot, in absolute terms, say it is better [more accurate].
One can only say it is more accurate if one compares the source wave form to the resulting sound at your ear!
Steve (Williewonka), your response to ieales about Ohm’s Law was correct, but he is correct in saying that equal currents exist in the positive and negative conductors connecting an amp and a speaker. (Although later in this post I’ll mention an extremely minor exception to that which might occur in the case of an active speaker).
For current to exist, there must be a "complete circuit," from source to load and back. In the case of an AC waveform, such as an audio signal, the direction of the current in both the positive and the negative conductors alternates every half-cycle, and the two conductors play an equal role in the transfer of energy from source to load. Energy is transferred in the form of an electromagnetic wave that is distinct from but is intimately associated with those currents, and that electromagnetic wave in turn propagates mainly in one direction, from source to load. (In the case of an amp/speaker interface some energy may also propagate from speaker to amp, as a result of "back-emf" produced by the drivers, or as a result of the release of energy stored in the inductive or capacitive components of the speaker’s impedance, or as a result of reflection effects that can occur at RF frequencies due to impedance mismatches).
An analogy that can be drawn would be to an ordinary light bulb. It consumes energy, of course, converting some of it into heat and some of it into light. But the amount of current entering it and leaving it via its two terminals, one of which is connected to AC "hot" and the other to AC "neutral," is identical.
The very minor possible exception I mentioned earlier is that in the case of a powered speaker a tiny fraction of the current in the positive conductor could conceivably return to the amp via a ground loop, part of which would consist of the safety ground conductors in the power cords of the amp and the speaker. In other words, to a very small extent, depending on the internal grounding configurations of the amp and the powered speaker, the AC safety ground wiring might be part of a relatively high resistance path that is in parallel with the negative conductor in the speaker cable, and it might thereby conduct a tiny fraction of the current in the positive conductor that would otherwise be returned to the amp by the negative conductor. (When two paths are present between a source and a load, current will utilize both paths, and at a given frequency will divide up between them in inverse proportion to their impedance at that frequency). But even in that case the amount of current leaving the amp will be identical to the total amount of current returning to it via whatever return path(s) is or are present.
Regarding "how Nordost cables do what they do," I have not studied them sufficiently or seen enough information about them to be able to provide meaningful comments at this time.
@ieales - I find your comments in response to my post a little perplexing...
People, Electronics 101: Ohms Law : An amplifier / loudspeaker is a series circuit and the same current flows through all of the components
. Actually Ohms law states
The potential difference (voltage) across an ideal conductor is proportional to the current through it. The constant of proportionality is called the "resistance", R.Ohm’s Law is given by: V = I R where V is the potential difference between two points which include a resistance R.
As stated above ohms law actually applies to a DC circuit - there is inductance and capacitance (i.e. reactance) to take into account when applying it to AC circuits.
But I do concede that it can "loosely" be applied to AC circuits - just not that loosely in this case.
As for...
Ergo the same current flows in both the plus and minus wire.
That may not exactly be the case for speaker cables...
Allow me to cite Physics 101"...
Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form
And the definition of a loudspeaker...
A transducer is a device that converts one form of energy into another form. For example, in a loudspeaker, electrical energy in a wire coil set up by the current is converted into the vibration (mechanical energy) of the speaker diaphragm and then into a sound wave (acoustical energy).
So, there is current (i.e. energy) flowing down the signal (i.e. the plus) conductor, which in a loudspeaker is "mostly" converted into motion and heat in the driver coils.
Ergo - the current (i.e. energy), or maybe even the voltage, in the neutral (i.e. minus) conductor cannot possibly be the same as the signal conductor.
As for ...
A wire configured differently for each leg may sound different but it sure ain’t due to the signal contaminating the neutral.
You then go on to cite
Weird geometry will change the Proximity Effect and thus the cable eq.
Proximity Effect? would that be (i.e. according to Wiki)
So we appear to agree on one thing - INDUCTION causes a cable to behave differently
Listen - I do not know the why’s and wherefore’s as to the reasons why helix geometries perform better than standard geometries.
What I AND some "industry professionals" have observed when using cables utilizing a Helix geometry... - they outperform most other cables having more "conventional" geometries - they offer outstanding clarity and expansive imaging - they excel in dynamic performance - they provide exceptional control and depth of the lower frequencies - they do not colour the sound
I thought long and hard before responding to your rather bombastic response to my post above.
We are all here to learn and share - no one person has ALL the answers.
I was just offering an opinion as to...
How These Nordost Speaker Cables Do What They Do
From that perspective - what I have seen is that some Nordost cables appear to be using a type of helix geometry combined with different gauge conductors.
@jayctoy Just looked up the Loki. Interesting but as presently built it looks like can only go inline on a single ended input Or if you were using seperates I guess it could go Between pre and power amp if you were using single ended. In that application it may have some merit.
Well I've had the Ryan 610's set up for a day.The combination of Quad VA-One,Red Dawn Rev.II and Norse Bi Wire Jumpers is very very pleasing,no hardness whatsoever,although they aren't disappearing like the tiny Dyn's but I don't think they are well broke in yet...
Listening to Robert Hall Lewis on my system....the Transparent Gen 5 Ultras are astounding! If you frequent the symphony or live music in general, what the Transparent cables convey is just simply jaw droppingly right across the frequency range. From triangles to double bass....and the tympani :(). Oh my!!
@jmcgrogan2 I have come to regard all cables as some form of tone control along with any other aspects they may enhance in ones system. Just me but it is easier and usually cheaper to swap cables around than gear. However my next plan is trying out a Lyngdorf with room correction which hopefully will eliminate any need for "tone control" surgery.....we will see
@freediver - in addition to the many comments above regarding purity of conductors and different material types - I believe a couple of other factors in cable performance is the "geometry" and "size" of the conductors
Geometry: is how the conductors are placed withing the actual "cable" itself e,g, one of the most well known geometries is braided - as in Kimber Kables.
Size: of late there is now a growing trend to use a different gauge conductors for signal and neutral conductors.
Personally, after a lot of trial (and error) experimentation - I now use a "helix" cable, where the neutral is twice the gauge of signal conductor and is wrapped around the signal conductor. See link below
My thought process is that this design eliminates any noise transfer (by inductance) from the signal conductor into the neutral conductor, which can occur with cables where the two conductors lie side-by-side inside a sleeve.
The noise transferred into the neutral is fed back into the neutral side of the amp and interferes with its operation , so removing that noise enhances clarity. Enhanced clarity also improves the "phase effect" between left and right channels which improves the Imaging.
I’ve found the Helix design provides exceptional clarity and superb 3D imaging along with a more detailed and deeper bass performance.
My thought process may be "flawed", but the Helix Cables works exceptionally well :-)
Anyhow - I believe geometry is just one more thing to consider when selecting ALL cables.
Hopefully one can tell the difference between natural and unnatural bass bloom......
@jayctoy
Very happy so far with the Heimdall, all purchased used so broken in and have not noticed any further changes since installing them. I am not sure that the cost vs sq factor in going higher up the chain will be of benefit to me with present equipment anyways.
John maybe 99% is way too high? Maybe 80%? In general, on their own system maybe? John , I never plan to have two systems , although 90% of my gear and cables are used, In some way I am fortunate but the downside I end up comparing my two system, it’ get complicated. It never stop. Your post will help a lot here , it’s very accurate...Uberwaltz you won’t regret with the Heimdalls, they are very good , I do have the Speaker cable heimdall 2, and the ic heimdall 1, and the Vishnu pc.just let them settle for at least 6 days...
I am now onto the Heimdal series and for my system and my ears each step up the Nordost line has brought benefits. Bass bloom has been much reduced compared to the all copper speaker cables I was previously employing, speed and detail is enhanced but not to the point it is tiring and wearisome ( at least not yet). I generally listen to music 4 to 6 hours a day. All of my Nordost cables have been purchased used so two benefits in that, cost saving and already broken in (hopefully). Will I continue to upgrade further? Maybe not as even used prices on higher product like Valhalla are quite prohibitive right now. But am I happy with my present loom of Heimdal, heck yes!
Eggs Ackly! Not only that, for typical and ubiquitous very high purity conductors the amount of the impurities is inconsequential. One millionth. Besides, if Nordost’s theory of directionality were true then fuses would exhibit the same phenomenon. But they don’t! That Nordost theory is actually what HiFi Tuning’s theory was, a long time ago - that wire directionality was dertermined by the break in process. But now HiFi Tuning understands that the manufacturing process determines the directionality of fuses (and wire in general).
Blimey - that’s a bold statement by a manufacturer:
"Although the cable signal is an alternating current, small impurities in the conductor act as diodes allowing signal flow to be better in one direction over time. This effect is also called quantum tunneling, w hich has been observed in experiments over 25 years ago. Regardless of the purity of the metal used, there are still diode effects in all conductors."
Whilst Quantum Tunneling is offered as an explainaion for certain phenomena (and tunnel diodes do indeed exist), I haven’t seen any evidence to link impurities in metals with this effect. Either way, how would they know in which direction these impurites were arranged? I wonder how they came up with that??!!
Well, Nordost is certainly all wet on their explanation of cable directionality. Maybe Nordost should pay closer attention to how Audioquest controls wire directionality.
“Are Nordost cables directional? Yes, Nordost cables are directional. This is especially true for single ended (RCA) interconnects as the shield is connected at the source or output end only.”
>>>>But what about their unshielded cables? Why do they have arrows?
“Which way do directional arrows point on Nordost cables? The directional arrows always point away from the source. For example, from a CD player to an amplifier, the arrows should point towards the preamplifier or power amplifier. On a speaker cable the arrows would always point towards the loudspeaker.”
>>>>>>If cables have no directionality when they are manufactured then why have arrows, unless all Nordost cables are shielded, including speaker cables? (Apparently, from what I can tell Nordost speaker cables are unshielded.)
“How can cables be directional? When cables are manufactured they do not have any directionality. However, as they break in, they acquire directionality. Although the cable signal is an alternating current, small impurities in the conductor act as diodes allowing signal flow to be better in one direction over time. This effect is also called quantum tunneling, w hich has been observed in experiments over 25 years ago. Regardless of the purity of the metal used, there are still diode effects in all conductors. In addition, the insulation material will change when it is subjected to an electrical field.”
The Nordost design is fundamentally flawed. Music is not portrayed naturally, the fundamentals are skewed higher on the scale and the overtones are not harmonious. Just plain wrong sounding. IMHO
Freediver, I see these cables come coiled in the box, but are you (and anyone else on here who has them) using them partly coiled or have you completely straightened out the cable prior to use?
Any coiled section in the cable could potentially act as a capacitor and additional capacitance will likely change the tone (eq) of your system - regardless of what your cables are made from.
Sadly, for this debate, the only cable rule I buy into is the longer your run, the stouter your cable should be. If your Nordost Red Dawn Rev.II cables are much stouter than what went before and your runs are long - i.e. at least 5 meters, then this may be a factor. Have you tried good regular stout copper cable as a test?
Your initial comments are entirely consistent with what one would expect from Acoustic Zen Epoch to a Nordost. The AZE have a poor PVC dielectric relative to the Nordost FEP. The AZE inductance is probably higher. The Proximity Effect will be radically different between the two geometries.
What I can’t wrap my head around, especially as an electrician, is how it’s possible for an electrical signal conductor to effectively change the regeneration of the signal between the amp and the speakers...
The signal is not 'between' the amp and speakers. The whole kit and caboodle is a system. The LRC of your amp, cable and speakers interact dynamically.
Do not be in a rush to choose.
@jmcgrogan2 +1, twice
@soix Agreed an initial patina can wear off rapidly. Price has little to do with performance. Some components are very sensitive to cables and others are not. An inexpensive cable may function better for any given component depending on said component parameters.
@jayctoy You are very lucky to have had the opportunities to learn and experience and grow with your mentors' guidance and exposure to their systems. Thank you for sharing your journey. Mine has been more of a solo effort until more recently.
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